In the Michael Ellis video "Training Dogs with Food" he shows luring to a "foot target".

This appears to be nothing more than a VERY large food or water bowl with straight sides, maybe 4-6" tall, that has been turned upside down.

While it SOUNDS like a stupid question, until I FIND something suitable it really isn't.
mall
Best ideas for what or where?

I would just as soon order from Amazon as go to Home Depot etc....

Does it need to be this tall? Would an inch or two be as good, better, or worse?

I was thinking perhaps a large flower pot masonry "saucer" of the size you use for small shrubs and such (maybe 12-18" across?

How big is best for a large dog?

80lb Golden and a female Great Pyrenees (3 mo. puppy, 22lbs) who will one day be about 80-100lbs.

For that matter, can the puppy use the same target or should we scale it approximately to her size?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

FYI: We have done clicker training before, but we are now focusing on Ellis' philosophy and "Food" videos and will be adding "Toys" video in the next few days.

We up to Luring, Pressure, and Foot Target.


We basically are STARTING OVER with the Golden (Trooper) since the Ellis material seems so much more complete and effective than the materials I bought 3 years ago and have been working from ever since.

We are also doing "Crate Games" video with the puppy. She is pretty much through what is called "Stage 3" but instead of doing it in the "one hour/one session" expected, it is taking me about 4 hours so far.

This is likely due to either the MY arthritis giving me trouble where I must get down on the floor to operate the create and treat, my lack of precision (though I try to get it as perfect as possible), or her being just a puppy.

Likely a bit of all three really.

I am concerned a bit about the GR Trooper not having enough drive for food or toys -- it's a shame I didn't have all the current information before.

These are not going to be competition dogs but I do want them toe enjoy working and be really good members of the household -- Trooper would get to go far more places if he can be trained in self-control in public.

This is my failure (so far). He's completely looses his food and toy drive the minute we go out the FRONT door or leave the backyard gate.

Its a drain pan, like for oil from the auto parts store. I don't have the videos, so I can't comment on specifics from them, but there are different things you can do to help a little with food drive.

I don't think its ever as good as when its just there, but in general making them work for it a little harder by pushing into your hand for it and being a little more animated when you're training. Don't stand in one spot, move around and reward for coming with you. Different things like that that can make it about more then just the piece of food itself.

Hi, Herb ...

Please let me say first that you should stop worrying about what you didn't know in the past.

I was just zipping over the posts before heading out for a short play/training session when I saw yours, and I thought how GREAT it is that you're ready and willing to start over. Your dogs and you will benefit hugely from your open mind and willingness. I say this as a person who sometimes works with other people's dogs, and who wishes that more owners had this willingness to embrace the best of what's now available. (I also wish that I had learned marker training a few decades earlier! )




"He's completely looses his food and toy drive the minute we go out the FRONT door or leave the backyard gate." ....

I want to tell you that going out the front door (IE, going out initially into the world of distractions) lessens every dog's interest in rewards (food and toy). Of course it does! If it didn't, then proofing all training against distraction would be unnecessary, whereas in reality it's the most crucial part in virtually all training. (JMO)





You specifically mentioned the pottery "saucer" that goes under a potted plant .... that's exactly what I used when I used for my first touch pad. I used a hard-rubber (or whatever those non-pottery things are made of) potting saucer as my first touch pad. (I made sure it was rigid .... non-shaky.)



Yes, I agree that it should be raised. It makes the beginning training so much clearer.

It should be sturdy, and it should start out big enough to be very clear .... unmistakeable.


See here how clear that pad is to the dog?

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/138/Michael_Ellis_Problem_Solving_Touch_Pad/


Now watch how, at 2:35 or so, how Michael describes eventually flattening that target.

(Don't be eager to rush to that. There is no hurry, IMHO, about making that touch pad smaller, less raised, or more subtle.)



(It's also good to watch that whole clip.)





Here is where he explains the clarity of having that pad (touch pad) be raised and large:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlMhEUC1SP8


(Watch that whole clip, too .... more points are internalized, for me, with each viewing. )





http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/126

 Quote: steve strom

Its a drain pan, like for oil from the auto parts store. I don't have the videos, so I can't comment on specifics from them, but there are different things you can do to help a little with food drive.

I don't think its ever as good as when its just there, but in general making them work for it a little harder by pushing into your hand for it and being a little more animated when you're training. Don't stand in one spot, move around and reward for coming with you. Different things like that that can make it about more then just the piece of food itself.

Ah .... Steve posted while I was typing. Yes, a drain pan would be great.

So is his comment about animating yourself and animating your rewarding.

You are watching a video that emphasizes that, but it's interesting how so many folks immediately pick up on the mechanics but not the movement, the animation, the involvement with the dog .... the attention on you and your rewards that is enhanced by your animation.

Or it could be a type of feed bucket:
http://leerburg.com/1329.htm

Sorry Herb. I change my own oil, so I jumped right to what I have.

I edited after I posted. I couldn't find the pan Connie linked Herb. But that's the one.

And here's another inexpensive touch pad:

http://leerburg.com/1329.htm

You can see from both responses how readily you can make do.

I had a plant "saucer" handy because I keep the disused ones upside-down to avoid starting a mosquito farm.

But really, there are many possibilities.

For me, at the beginning, it's important to have the touch pad be unmistakable .... very clear. Raised helps, and so does size.

So much to respond to so much VERY quick help. Thx all.

1) I found this Rubber Feed Pan at Amazon once I knew what to call it and the size (4 quarts), $14.53 for 2 with shipping included.



http://www.amazon.com/Miller-Manufacturing-HP-2-4-Quart-Rubber/dp/B000BQYJM8/ref=pd_bxgy_petsupplies_text_y

2) I haven't watched the videos yet.

3) We do get the idea of animation and movement (although we probably didn't do enough of that in the past; the movement at least. We are older and don't move quite so well but no excuses so we'll find a way.

4) We are clicker/marker trainers (amateurs and not even competitors) but we can't be THAT good since the results were only C+ with Trooper.

5) I understand that all dogs have some of the issue of both context specific learning in general and public overload when going out into the world, but Trooper is near the top for such a good dog. He literally will spit out his favorite foods, and seems deaf dumb and blind to anything that isn't new.

6) Only yesterday in watching one of the Leerburg videos did I realized that Trooper's prong collar had never been properly sized (no one told me that and I just sized it like a regular collar.)

7) On the prong collar, most/many of the clicker training folks will not even allow you to TALK about a prong collar but I came to realize in Trooper's case it is KINDER to him than an ordinarily WIDE band collars -- he'll throw himself against the ordinary collar and end up coughing but he respects the prong and it never seems to harm or even hurt him. I believe in positive training but also in doing what it necessary to care for our dog.

8)Trooper probably HAD good food drive (inside and in the backyard) when we started but we may have accidentally diminished it by making it too easy for him. He's had plenty to eat tonight so I am not going to feed again and try working with him at daylight out back. If he doesn't get interested, I am not going to put food down and then take him out ever couple of hours to try again for brief periods.

I am not going to "starve" him, but I will keep hand feeding until he shows his old interests.

We did this his first year but just as we bought him I was hired for an out of town job and my wife (who then didn't know the system except for what I told her) was trying to hand feed and teach him while I was gone.

So this was my using what are now "old" materials even of clicker training, filtered through trying to explain it to her.

9) The idea of having it raised was absolutely clear in the video (and WHY as well), but there was no mention of how far to raise it or dog size, or anything, nor a mention of stability.

The first thing I tried around the house was not stable (nor quite big enough).

We have plenty to work on with the (new) luring and (new) pressure work.

I had used pressure but had NOT learned it from anyone and my methods were not optimal.

10) Trooper and our new puppy (Sugar the Great Pyrenees) are NOT going to be competitive dogs because frankly *WE* don't have the ability for that, and by the standards of most people on this forum they probably won't be at the top of the "pet" ladder either but we want them to be VERY, VERY GOOD. Trooper misses out one going places with us since he pulls and doesn't have a reliable recall. I was taking him to the lake dog park until a year ago when my ability to walk got to the point that I am afraid I might not be able to chase him to the other end of the park.

11) I don't want to make him sound untrained -- I just don't want anyone to thing that *I* think that *I* have done a great job.

Trooper does a mean "Dead Dog" -- and even adds dramatic flourishes. He know the difference between "Spin" and "Whirl" which are opposite directions, and is Ok at most of the basic commands (all could be improved A LOT however.)

12) I have no trouble "Starting Over" -- I want him to do really well and I want the new puppy to have an even better start.

We bought the puppy FOR TROOPER to have a playmate, and we don't want him to think we are ignoring him in favor of the new puppy -- he loves her so far and plays very appropriately with her.

13) I am a little concerned that we may be messing up by letting them play together at this point -- Mr. Frawley mentioned in one video that he didn't want to let his dogs in training play with other dogs so they would think that 'HE is the most fun'.

I haven't always been separating them for training, or separating them far enough, but I am leaning towards doing more of this separately.

14) We intended to give them each a Different "Yes" and "Good" command, but I find myself constantly forgetting to distinguish for each dog so that might be out the window.

Thoughts? Do two dogs that live close together need two sets of markers?

15) Also, since we were using a clicker primarily with Trooper, he never had a CONSTANT and CLEAR set of verbal markers so this does give us a chance to rework his markers for that reason alone.

16) Trooper loves to play tug and such, so my next plan is to buy and work through the "Training ....with Toys/Tug" video.

17) Gosh it was stupid of us to buy another puppy but we don't regret it.


18) What is the MOST ATTRACTIVE FOOD reward that is also manageable?

Some ideas I have tried:

a) Trooper likes Alpo crackers (1" squares, cheap at WalMart in a 2 lb box) -- these go a long way when broken into about 4 pieces, don't seem too bad for him, and work pretty well as a medium value cookie.

b) He really likes cheese, maybe a little better than the cookies. Cheese tends to make a mess in the treat bag etc.

c) Brisket he loves, but even this he will turn down when "out front".

d) Bananas/Peanut Butter/Mayo -- mix up a banana and unsalted peanut butter, add enough mayo to keep it from sticking your mouth together -- my momma used to make this for ME when I was little -- TROOPER LOVES THIS STUFF and it will SOMETIMES get his attention when out front on the street.

It is however TERRIBLY MESSY to manage while holding a leash and a clicker (can drop the clicker now since we have trained the verbal markers.)

e) Carol boiled up some chicken thighs and these are working pretty well for both dogs, but again, they are quite greasy, and my hand almost becomes a treat even with nothing in it. (Lick my hand before they even get the treat under my thumb.)

f) Little Sugar (Bear)will work for kibble, either her puppy kibble or Trooper's adult forumula which is bigger and takes longer to chew.

That little puppy kibble is about the ideal PRE-MADE bite size if it were higher vaue.

So I took the bacon grease from breakfast and laid out both types of kibble one layer flat on separate plates and dribbled the bacon grease over them, then baked 20 minutes in the over at 350.

It is still a bit greasy but not at bad as the chicken.

Sugar will work for this stuff pretty well (better for the chicken) and Trooper will work for it some.

g) Various dog treats from Walmart -- not thrilled by what's in some of them but I try to buy the ones with the least sugars and such.

Old Roy's treats which look like "slim jim's" about 4 inches long are pretty darn good -- break off a pellet sized piece and Trooper works for this IF he isn't full.

h) We worked Trooper a lot that first year by hand feeding him his "wet food".

He now LOVES "TurDucken" dog food (some brand my wife finds) and we give him a can a couple of times a month.

Sometimes I hand feed that as a treat. Messy again, but pretty good results frm HIM.

That's what I will try tomorrow to see if we can re-animate him.


Still looking for the perfect treat food(s).

a black rubber feed pan works well, something you use for livestock. My dog doesn't like to touch metal and he's not big on crockery either.

" g "


http://leerburg.com/treat.htm

http://leerburg.com/1078.htm

http://leerburg.com/1141.htm




Also, a "mixed bag" for your bait bag .... keep bits of meat or cheese in the fridge to mix with the good-quality purchased rewards above .... create a slot-machine effect with that mixed bag.



Here's the bag I highly recommend:

http://leerburg.com/736.htm


These wear like iron, IME.