Interesting Comparison, SAD END:

This is mainly for folks who have Actually Worked dogs such as Terriers and/or Sighthounds, etcetera, on LIVE PREY:

1) No one has to train a hunting Sighthound or Akita to KILL their PREY...

2) The "chase -> Grip -> KILL" drive is Inherently Integrated into one inseparable function, in my personal experience with such breeds...

3) But now I have Dobermans - Apparently quite a different story with these dogs...

4) Last Friday evening my Dobie bitch caught an immature opossum, which I erroneously assumed she would Dispatch Forthwith -- WRONG She just tormented it like a cat would, tossing it in the air & then roughly pawing it when the unfortunate creature "played dead"...

5) This possum was so young that it wouldn't "stay dead" for very long, but would get up & run off shortly instead, so Adobe would grab it again & start playing with it once more...

6) I actually happen to LIKE opossums (had a captive-bred one as a PET when I was a kid) -- Anyway, I couldn't stand how my dog was torturing it, rather than making a Clean Kill...

7) So I had to Dispatch the poor, harmless & helpless, innocent little animal myself -- And dear God, I will never forget that HORROR for the rest of my life !!! (A person can either manage such unhappy necessities dispassionately, or like me, they CANNOT) so last Friday evening I sorely MISSED my former "Killer Breeds"...

My question here, for people who are knowledgeable on This Topic is, "What's with the DISCONNECT between Chase & Grab and KILL in Prey Drive that I witnessed in that instance?" -- I hope never to experience any repeat of such a ghastly scenario ... My male Adonis, happened to have been put away at the time, but I suspect that he would be even LESS likely to Dispatch Anything than Adobe proved to be.

gotta ask this :

was your intention for your dog to kill the possum , and if not , why didn't you call her off as soon as you realized what she had ?

( btw , I'm not opposed to exterminating varmints by whatever means deemed suitable and humane , i'm just wondering what your motivations were . )



while doing goose deterrent work a couple of days ago , henry was able to run down a family group with goslings that had gotten a little too far from the water . ordinarily they hop into the water and swim away . as I approached I could see henry sniffing something on the grass , and I thought perhaps he had finally killed a gosling . when I got a bit closer , he backed off a bit and the gosling , who I now presume was playing dead , leapt up and scuttled off to join the family waiting just offshore . henry just stood there and watched it run off .

animals don't see killing other animals in the same humane/inhumane perspective that we humans do . I'd suggest that the stalking/catching/killing process is one of those "self rewarding " behaviors that some dogs will engage in , and that they may be " better/more efficient " at one of those three than the other two .

sorry you had to do the " dirty work " yourself candi

 Quote: ian bunbury

gotta ask this: was your intention for your dog to kill the possum , and if not , why didn't you call her off as soon as you realized what she had ?

We were in the backyard & she was offlead -- First I thought it was a roof rat ... Whatever, such invaders get under my house & pose problems, so I always want a dog to kill any vermin on the property.

 Quote: Ian Bunbury

(btw , I'm not opposed to exterminating varmints by whatever means deemed suitable and HUMANE, i'm just wondering what your motivations were.)

My past dogs have always made a quick, Clean, "HUMANE" kill -- I was caught off-guard by my new breed of dog "playing" with the prey, Tormenting and TORTURING it (like a cat would) and when she did not Dispatch the poor thing Immediately, then I did call her off & do the thankless wet-work myself

 Quote: Ian Bunbry

while doing goose deterrent work a couple of days ago , henry was able to run down a family group with goslings that had gotten a little too far from the water . ordinarily they hop into the water and swim away . as I approached I could see henry sniffing something on the grass , and I thought perhaps he had finally killed a gosling.

I would consider that allowing your dog to Harass Wildlife, to which I am powerfully opposed & which is also illegal where I live -- Though maybe you're a Game Warden, or have some sort of permit? But still, no offense, just sayin'...

 Quote: Ian Bunbury

animals don't see killing other animals in the same humane/inhumane perspective that we humans do.

I'm well aware of that fact, Ian.

 Quote: Ian Bunbury

...the stalking/catching/killing process: some dogs may be "better/more efficient" at one of those three than the other two.

Perhaps you're right -- I much prefer the style of my previous Akita and Sighthound breeds, thanks to which their prey virtually "never knew what hit them", is my point here.

 Quote: Ian Bunbury

sorry you had to do the "dirty work" yourself candi

Thank you, my cyber friend, me too -- I have never killed anything intentionally before this (much less with my "bare" hands, so to speak) and the act was beyond brutal, because it took a few blows for me to succeed ... I am reduced to sobbing whenever I think of it, and fear that scenario may present itself in future, if chances are these Dobermans will never kill prey with precision

thanks for the reply candi ...

to answer , yes , I am a private contractor with a permit to haze geese on municipal property in the town where I live . we also have a permit to addle eggs , but I leave that " dirty work " for someone else . we have a small but growing population of Canada geese here in this valley and we are trying to be proactive about managing their numbers : balancing their presence and biodiversity vs how much $h!t can be picked up to maintain our parks usability .


we use the dog , kites , bear bangers , lasers , habitat modification , but like I learned working bears , the most important part is human presence . all the other things are just tools you use to back up your position .

I did natural earth work with terriers for a number of years.

All I can say is that some dogs will finish the quarry and some wont.

My two Border terriers were absolutely deadly on quarry and I retired them for that reason. No backing up and WAY to willing to take a terrible beating in order to do so. That wasn't why I hunted them.

My JRT was a great baying dog in the ground. I hunted him for a number of yrs and it was rare for him to take a bite. Never anything more then a nip.

He was a great ratter above ground but had no interest in chasing cats. I didn't allow that and I suspect all he would do is run around a cat and bark at it.

My Norwich terrier wouldn't hunt anything then a field mouse or bay treed with squirrels. He wouldn't even do the earth dog trials with any enthusiasm but he quickly killed two ducks in his one and only attempt at herding.

MANY dogs will chase a cat but if the cat stops running and turns MOST dogs will decide they had something else to do.

Border Collies are often the breed used for goose control because of their excellent chase instincts and, for the most part their lack of kill instinct.

My SchIII GSD Thunder was also and excellent herding dog. Worked sheep like a champ and the same with ducks.

He had a Kamikazi duck attack him once and it bit him in the sides and hung on. He just shook it off and went about penning the ducks.

He was started on goats and one of the billy goats had a reputation of running dogs.

When the billy started stomping at Thunder and walking towards him, Thunder simply walked up to the goat (ears and tail up, and stiff legged) and backed it down with no contact.

His only use of his mouth was the occasional grip over the withers to control sheep.

My other GSD Trooper had potential but he was more about trying to hamstring the goats.

Two working line GSDs and two different behaviors concerning the use of their mouth.

Bottom line

You can make an educated guess depending on the lines but never really know till it happens!

 Quote: ian bunbury

thanks for the reply candi ...

to answer , yes , I am a private contractor with a permit to haze geese on municipal property in the town where I live . we also have a permit to addle eggs , but I leave that " dirty work " for someone else . we have a small but growing population of Canada geese here in this valley and we are trying to be proactive about managing their numbers : balancing their presence and biodiversity vs how much $h!t can be picked up to maintain our parks usability .

we use the dog , kites , bear bangers , lasers , habitat modification , but like I learned working bears , the most important part is human presence . all the other things are just tools you use to back up your position .

Ian, thanks for explaining your Creds -- That wasn't YOU in "Fly Away Home" trying to render those orphan goslings flightless, was it? (Just kidding, LOL) ... Yes, balancing & managing the needs of Wildlife vs Humanity is typically a touchy subject for an animal-lover.

 Quote: Bob Scott

I did natural earth work with terriers for a number of years.
All I can say is that some dogs will finish the quarry and some wont.

Well, there ya have it, THANKS

 Quote: Bob Scott

My two Border terriers were absolutely deadly on quarry and I retired them for that reason. No backing up and WAY to willing to take a terrible beating in order to do so. That wasn't why I hunted them.

Borzoi in Russia were coursed in troikas (trios) on wolves for centuries -- They ran down their prey MILES out in front of the mounted handlers who took the lupine trophies their hounds had summarily dispatched LONG before the humans arrived ... Any hounds not keen to make an Immediate Kill would be dispatched by the wolves rather than vice versa And when it comes to Akitas, they do not know the meaning of BLUFF, Posture, or hold-at-bay, so they choke their quarry out with one full-mouth Death Grip on the neck, and then finish the job with one crushing Kill Bite through the skull (it's lights-out for their prey in well under a minute) which is an amazingly Humane procedure.

 Quote: Bob Scott

My JRT was a great baying dog in the ground. I hunted him for a number of yrs and it was rare for him to take a bite. Never anything more then a nip.

He was a great ratter above ground but had no interest in chasing cats. I didn't allow that and I suspect all he would do is run around a cat and bark at it.

My Norwich terrier wouldn't hunt anything then a field mouse or bay treed with squirrels. He wouldn't even do the earth dog trials with any enthusiasm but he quickly killed two ducks in his one and only attempt at herding.

MANY dogs will chase a cat but if the cat stops running and turns MOST dogs will decide they had something else to do.

Border Collies are often the breed used for goose control because of their excellent chase instincts and, for the most part their lack of kill instinct.

My SchIII GSD Thunder was also and excellent herding dog. Worked sheep like a champ and the same with ducks.

He had a Kamikazi duck attack him once and it bit him in the sides and hung on. He just shook it off and went about penning the ducks.

He was started on goats and one of the billy goats had a reputation of running dogs.

When the billy started stomping at Thunder and walking towards him, Thunder simply walked up to the goat (ears and tail up, and stiff legged) and backed it down with no contact.

His only use of his mouth was the occasional grip over the withers to control sheep.

My other GSD Trooper had potential but he was more about trying to hamstring the goats.

Two working line GSDs and two different behaviors concerning the use of their mouth.

Bottom line

You can make an educated guess depending on the lines but never really know till it happens!

Extremely informative post, THANKS, Bob!

Wild canids will play with prey at times. The extreme kill drive in some breeds seems to be more a product of selective breeding IMO.

As far as Border Collies and killing goes, well, my first one was gentle as all get out with lambs, kittens and human babies. She was death on vermin. My next one killed a skunk before it had a chance to spray him. Farm dogs seem to be able to figure out what animals belong and what ones don't. But with cats they'd just chase the ones that didn't belong. They wouldn't try to kill them.

 Quote: Mara Jessup

Wild canids will play with prey at times.

The extreme kill drive in some breeds seems to be more a product of selective breeding IMO.

As far as Border Collies and killing goes, well, my first one was gentle as all get out with lambs, kittens and human babies.

She was death on vermin.

My next one killed a skunk before it had a chance to spray him. Farm dogs seem to be able to figure out what animals belong and what ones don't. But with cats they'd just chase the ones that didn't belong. They wouldn't try to kill them.

I agree that breeds created & used to Kill Prey ARE Selectively Bred to dispatch their quarry post-haste, yes, Mara -- I'm also thinking along the lines of Vermin that Invade a dog's HOUSE could possibly trigger more of a Quick Kill response from individuals with high prey drive ... I'm just as glad that in my Adobe vs Opossum debacle, the little varmint had NOT breached the interior of our Home !!! Am wondering if that should ever happen, whether my Dobies would THEN get right to the finish & not "play" with the hapless creature (???)

hey candi . . . here's a little story that will give you some food for thought .

a couple of years ago I was driving very slowly along a little used road on the mountain I work on . right there in the grass on the side of the road was a coyote , staring fixated on something in the grass . ordinarily you can't get within a 100 yds of a coyote in these parts . he took one slow glance at me , then went back to what he was fixated on . I had a pretty good idea what was going on , so I shut the engine off and waited for the show .

it took about six minutes , but he eventually leapt straight up into the air and pounced on the prey , which turned out be some kind of rodent , a little smaller than the size of a football .

the coyote tossed that thing up into the air several times , chasing it when it hit the ground , before he delivered the death shake . it was almost like he needed to vent some excess energy from standing still for a prolonged period ( obviously I have no idea how long he'd been there before I came along ).

he then trotted off to a nice sunny , grassy spot about 50 yds where he lay down and proceeded to eviscerate the animal .

I felt really privileged to have witnessed that .

based on that experience , I'd say "adobe" isn't that far off what sometimes happens out there where the canids kill for a living . if she had been hungry and that was going to be her next meal , it's possible she wouldn't have played around with it for as long as she did .