Hi, I'm training my dogs to stay in "sit pretty" or "play bow' or "dead" and so on. How far can I go with the duration/ oF course I will never exaggerate, but Always ajust this to the individual dog. But I'd like to know how far I can go, if they need the posture for example for dog dancing, me to jump over them n this position and so on.
I'd also like to know, if someone has experience, if you demand a dog "playing dead" with some duration. Mine ly on their side, as asked from them , they stay like this until I release, but they lift their head, when I'm moving away or around them. I totally understand this, but the exercise is going on lying on their side, head down. I always reward the duration of the position head down the floor, but as soon as I move two steps away, the head comes up, looking after me.

I know it is not so importante, just a trick, but I'd love to do it.

If they move just give a "nope" and when your moving then initially just move a bit in place and reward this if they hold it.

Add more movement such as jumping a bit in place.

Don't add distance until fairly strong movement in place is accomplished.

When you move as in one step do it with less distraction then the level you were at when you were doing it in place.

It's no different then any other command.

Time, distance and distraction are never added at the same time.

ALL training be it tricks or obedience should be looked at as another command that is expected to be performed at the same level.

Damned, you're right again! Yes I moved away to far, just one or two steps though, but this was obviously already too much. Just moving a bit on the spot will probably be enough distraction for
them to get used to.

When you ask for a sit/down/stand stay do you then ask them for a stay without turning their heads too? My dogs can hold a stay quite long,(except the brain damaged one). I jump in front of them or ovr them and produce all sort of silly things, I can even go out of sight and they stay (my husband observes then), but they always turn their heads and look where I'm going.

The "stay" can be done in basically two different ways.

In AKC obedience there is a verbal "stay" command.

In Schutzhund/IPO giving a "stay" command is considered a second command because the dog is expected to hold the sit or down command without a "stay" command till it receives another command.

If the dog breaks the sit or down command in Sch/IPO then the dog just looses points.

If the dog breaks the sit or down command in AKC it flunks.

I competed in both with my now gone Thunder and taught the sit/down commands with no stay.

I proofed it with a lot of different words added simply to comply with the AKC rules.

In other words I expect the dog to hold position without a stay command till I give it another command.

It just seems like a moot point after giving a sit or down command.

I realize your not in competition so the choice of giving the extra command is up to you.

The dog moving it's head in either organization OR in my world means nothing if it's still holding the position.

Thanks, Bob. So with the last part I can be satisfied as I don't go into competition.

But you made me aware of something which I consider really a mistake. Because of the courses I've taken I use a duration command for making them stay. Later on I probably can leave that one too. But I use additionally a verbal command ("fica!" = "stay!").

This is a habit I have from a self styled trainer we had in the very beginning for 3 months and the dogs are used to it. Nevertheless I agree with you, a command sit should be enough for a sit stay, a down a for down stay etc. Adding another verbal command is a double command, in my eyes unnecessary.

How do I re-train them? Just begin with the Sit etc., remain near to them and re-start, when they break the sit. And once this works, proof it as you describe?

I also make a hand sign. Is this unnecessary too? I thought it might be good if I want to put them in a sit stay from a big distance or in a situation with lot of noise. (Which rarely happens in reality as they are never off-line outside our Yard).

Use the "stay" if that's your preference but it's easy to switch over.

Start back next to or in front of the dog and just give the command with no "stay".

The hands signal is fine also.

Dogs actually respond to visual cues easier then to verbal cues.

Their life is mostly about visual communication among the pack.

One of my daughters is a sign language interpreter and she taught many commands to one of her dogs with sign.

She says it was a piece of cake.

Not thinking of going into competition you can adjust your commands any way you wish.

It's all about YOUR communication with YOUR dog.

True, it's all about my communication. But there sneak easily mistakes in. Two verbal cues for the same command might easily confuse the dogs, or not? I want to be clear in my communiction, so I think I will switch.

What is a sign language interpreter? Someone who "speaks" the sign language of deaf and dumb people? Wow, admirable! But must be very difficult. I had a sister who knew this.

Back to the dogs: Will I not be misunderstood, using signs which are similar?
For example: I show them the palm of my right hand at about my shoulder's height for the Stay.
For the Stop I also show my right palm, but my arm over my head. I'm not sure about the effect, ss I use a verbal command too. Does that mean, I should train the verbal and the hand sign command separately?

And how about using feet or legs as signals? E.g. If I want a roll over beside and towards me (starting from a down) I lift my leg on that side. One of my Pits does it correctly, the other ones have not understood it yet.

Two verbal cues for the same behavior should not be confusing. Many competitors and some police and military handlers teach commands in more than one language. You can take the dog's sit and give it 20 names, and unless your dog is very dense, he should have no problem sitting whenever you say any one of those 20 commands.

Really? I always thought that too many different commands for the same thing would split the effect of those commands. The dogs would learn to understand and follow them, but one single consistent command would be more efficient. But frankly I can not really judge this. Yes, maybe it also depends very much on the capacity of the individual dog.

What Duane is saying is that competitors often use different commands for "somewhat" similar behaviors.

I use "front" for a competition come sit in front and "here" for a simple come to me. Nothing formal and no sit front necessary.

"Down" or "plats" for an immediate competition command for the dog to hit the deck immediately.

A simple less formal "go lay down" at home and the dog can move across the yard to a shady spot if it wants.

Intent and voice inflection is also different for home use and competition.