In training dituations you give a body language or voice command. When the job is correctly done you mark, then reward.

But how do they do this in competitons, e.g agility, dog dancing etc.
There you can't always shout a command or give an obvios body command, neither can you mark nor reward. The whole process wouldn't be fluent.

Is this just a question of getting the dog slowly used to chain exercises he already knows solidly?

Or is this done differently depending on the sport.

I know in dog dance they chain. As you can't give any signals, does this mean, the dog has finally to know the whole routine by heart and gets his reward at the end?

It's a matter of chaining all the behaviors together as you mentioned.

The AKC OB events are probably no more then 5 mins a dog. Three basic different levels. Novice, Open and Utility. Utility has one part where the dog's commands are hand signal only.

A Schutzhund/IPO OB can be 10-15 mins + you dog will be on a down next to the field while while your out of sight while another dog does the routine.

Been a while since I've been in a ring or field for either of these so those still doing competition feel free to correct me.

Wow fifteen minutes!. This will need a whole lot of training I guess. But don't the dogs loose motivation because they have to wait for a reward so long? Or do they feel : I'm doing this very well and their whole job is already like a reward?

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

In training dituations you give a body language or voice command. When the job is correctly done you mark, then reward.

But how do they do this in competitons, e.g agility, dog dancing etc.
There you can't always shout a command or give an obvios body command, neither can you mark nor reward. The whole process wouldn't be fluent.

Is this just a question of getting the dog slowly used to chain exercises he already knows solidly?

Or is this done differently depending on the sport.

I know in dog dance they chain. As you can't give any signals, does this mean, the dog has finally to know the whole routine by heart and gets his reward at the end?

Christina, I'm not sure I'm really understanding your question. When one competes with their dog in an event, be it obedience, agility, dog dancing (commonly called freestyle here in the US), or anything else, of course the handler gives the dog commands. Depending on the particular event and rules, it may be verbal, a hand signal, body language, etc. For example, dogs are not expected to enter the ring at an agility competition and run the course themselves. If you've ever watched agility, the handler runs along with the dog, shouting commands -- "Weave!, Tunnel!, Jump!" etc. and through a combination of commands, hand signals pointing the way, and body language, guides the dog through the course.

Likewise, with dog dancing. The dog doesn't have to learn the entire routine and then perform it with no input from the handler. Here is an excerpt from the FCI International Dog Dancing Regulations:

"3.1.4 Cues. Cues may be given with the voice, a gesture and/or body language. The dog should be responsive to the handler at all times. The amount of signals is not essential as long as the seamless teamwork of the dog and the handler is maintained throughout the routine."

All types of competition that I am familiar with follow the same idea that a dog is trained through use of cues, either by voice, hand signal, or body language (although body language is not allowed in some types of events like obedience), and then those cues are how you communicate to the dog what you want it to do in the ring.

The dogs do not have to remember an entire 15-minute or so routine. You are cueing them for each different maneuver the whole time. It is true, there is no mark-and-reward in competition, not until the very end. That is why trainers work so hard to gradually reduce the number of rewards the dog gets until it learns to expect only a random or occasional reward. That is how you get through a competition routine. The dog has been properly conditioned to understand it may only get that reward every five or ten or fifteen minutes. But in all the types of competitions I have observed, that dog gets their toy or their food reward after they leave the ring!

Christina, please clarity if I'm not understanding your question.

I always lie to compare Marker training to a slot machine.

If a person wants that machine to pay off all it takes for the occasional win but they keep pulling that handle they "believe" it will really happen.

If that slot machine doesn't pay off more then likely they will move to another machine hoping, again, for that payoff.

It's simply the belief that the reward WILL come if they keep going.

The dogs and the gambler are both conditioned to keep trying.

Not all dogs OR people have the "drive" or temperament to do this.

I will add that in AKC and Schutzhund/IPO yes, there will always be those folks that try and get by with those little "extra" cues but with both types of competition there are penalties beginning with lost points to being Disqualified for adding anything extra vocally OR visually to what is considered a normal command.

I

Ah, so the dogs have to be gradually accustoemed to the fact that not each time they'll get a reward, but that they'll get one for sure after some chained behaviors. It begins with the random rewards as you always point to. Then we chain a sequence of two, three or more benaviors without cues and rewards. The final length of it depending on the individual dog. In competions of course also adapted to the rules, which for myself is of no importance any more.

The comparison with the slot machine is dabulous. I've seen people on a cigarette machine, which had always functioned reliably but some day something went wrong. The persons couldn't believe it at first and tried again and again, some longer, some less.

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

. . . .Then we chain a sequence of two, three or more benaviors without cues and rewards . . . .

Not exactly. Without rewards, yes, but not without cues -- or commands, if you prefer that term. For example, I may want my dog to do a sequence of Sit, Stand, Down, Stand. I may ask him to do all four of those in a row, without my marking or rewarding each one. When he has completed all four, then I will mark and reward.

I'm not saying it is impossible to train a dog to do more than one behavior in a row, but you specifically asked about competition, so I'm trying to address that. In competition, the dog is cued for each individual behavior as you go through the routine. They have to be, because most routines are not the same from one competition to the next. The agility course is set up differently, the obedience judge does the exercises in a different order, etc. The rules allow for this.

Some individual exercises are chained behaviors in a sense. For example, in AKC Open obedience, there is a broad jump. With one cue, the dog is expected to run to the jump from a seated position in front of it, go over it, and after he goes over, he must immediately make a 180-degree turn and come back to the handler and sit in from of them. All of this must be done with just one command. However, the exercise is still not done. Then the dog must "finish," which means he comes around to sit at your left side, facing forward. That requires a second command.

Dog dancing, which you specifically asked about, is not something I participate in, but I have seen it performed. I'm sure, with practicing a specific routine over and over, a dog does learn to do some maneuvers as a chain, so you're not cueing each and every step, but there are many cues given in the course of an entire routine.

I hope I'm not confusing you too much!

Certainly, Connie, you're confusing me partly, you're as well clearing up things. First: competiton is for me of no importance, as I have no possibility to do this here and also because of my age. For agiltiy for example I fear i wouldn't be fit enough in comparison with a dog!. Though I know i don't have to run the same distance as the dog. I can send him through a tunnel, over or along another obstacle and I myself can take a shortcut. Even though!!! Very exhausting. I also know they use other techniques, as far as I read, the dog needs to follow where my shoulder turns and other manouevres. So he does get ohysical cues.

I don't need agility in the competitive sense, but I bought a DVD, recommended by Kelly and I find this sport extremely interesting. I just flew over it at first (have too big a DVD, Video-, Book-library on the whole). But the different techniques are very interesting and I began with a part of it only yesterday, merely for fun and for giving my dogs new inputs. They are very useful for a dog to learn even if one doesn't go into competition and they love it much until now.

With regard to dog dancing I've only learned to chain some solid behaviors, but I think once I want to go through a whole choreo I mustn't interrupt this with cues, marks, rewards. Of course without doubt I'll have to train this using the normal principles of marker training. But once the whole thing is finished - engrained as I hope - I will have have to leave this. I can't call a cue "Roll over" to a dog, especially not when he is at distance to me. We're dancing to music and it would look awful if i'd stopped in between with cues and rewards. So, this means in my eyes it must be trained consistently and thoroughly and the dog must have everything in his mind.

Thanks a lot for your answer. It is always very valuable to get such a feedback. I can only regrett nowadays i haven't commenced younger, but unfortunably I couldn't.

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

Certainly, Connie, you're confusing me partly, you're as well clearing up things. First: competiton is for me of no importance, as I have no possibility to do this here and also because of my age. For agiltiy for example I fear i wouldn't be fit enough in comparison with a dog!. Though I know i don't have to run the same distance as the dog. I can send him through a tunnel, over or along another obstacle and I myself can take a shortcut. Even though!!! Very exhausting. I also know they use other techniques, as far as I read, the dog needs to follow where my shoulder turns and other manouevres. So he does get ohysical cues.

I don't need agility in the competitive sense, but I bought a DVD, recommended by Kelly and I find this sport extremely interesting. I just flew over it at first (have too big a DVD, Video-, Book-library on the whole). But the different techniques are very interesting and I began with a part of it only yesterday, merely for fun and for giving my dogs new inputs. They are very useful for a dog to learn even if one doesn't go into competition and they love it much until now.

With regard to dog dancing I've only learned to chain some solid behaviors, but I think once I want to go through a whole choreo I mustn't interrupt this with cues, marks, rewards. Of course without doubt I'll have to train this using the normal principles of marker training. But once the whole thing is finished - engrained as I hope - I will have have to leave this. I can't call a cue "Roll over" to a dog, especially not when he is at distance to me. We're dancing to music and it would look awful if i'd stopped in between with cues and rewards. So, this means in my eyes it must be trained consistently and thoroughly and the dog must have everything in his mind.

Thanks a lot for your answer. It is always very valuable to get such a feedback. I can only regrett nowadays i haven't commenced younger, but unfortunably I couldn't.

This is Cheri, not Connie.

First, I totally agree that it is fun for both the dog and their owner to learn some of the agility obstacles, even if you have no intention of competing. I'm a bit younger, and I don't know if I'm in good enough condition to do it, but I know a lot of women in their 70s who compete in agility!

In response to what I've bold-faced above, I'm not sure why you still believe you cannot or should not cue a dog during a dance routine. See the video I've linked below. I can clearly see the handler cueing the dog through the entire three-minute routine. Remember, a cue isn't just a verbal command. It can also be a hand signal, or a movement of the leg, or other body language. I'm seeing lots of that here. You can't tell from the video, but I'm sure she's also speaking to her dog. When the dog is right next to you, you don't have to shout. And you don't stop to give the cues. It is all seamless and incorporated into the dance the handler is doing. If she wanted her dog to roll over at a distance, I bet she could do it with a hand signal that just looks like part of the dance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n936e073z58

I think dogs are incredibly intelligent, trainable, and fun-loving creatures, but I can't imagine a dog memorizing all the steps and movements of an entire dance routine and then performing it with perfectly with no input from the handler. Remember, the handler's movements are oftentimes the cue. My dog knows formal heeling. I can put him or her into a heel with just one word, then say nothing more, but if I stop and back up, the dog does the same. If I turn one way or another, the dog does, too. My body movements are physical cues to the dog.