OK, I have a Mal and I would like to know how far along I should be. I have had some health issues (skin related) that I am trying to overcome (as the breeder said I could trade but would rather not at this point if I can fix the prob) and this has slowed me down a bit as well as her.

Anyhow, how far along should I be with the protection training. As in what shoudl she know at this point as far as obedience and anything else like manners etc. She's 4 months old for the record and I know that every dog is different in personality.

SO what are your expectations with your dogs in a normal situation given the dog is ok as far as behavior. She fetches like hell and bites everything. Plastic popped balls, ropes, towels, or anything. So she has a decent set of instincts.

Now its work. She can sit, down, and come ok. She still gets mixed up with sit and down as I am training her in a different language and the Sit and down are similar in sound except for the beginning pronunciation.

Anyhow, how am I doing. All criticism is going to be taken into consideration so flame away. I need to know what to do as far as keeping the progress I am doing or speed up my as well as her tasks to put that behind me...

Thanks for your help...

Aaron if I may be candid...

You can't play 'catch up' just because medical issues have 'slowed you down'...This doesn't work and will NEVER work nor is it fair to the pup.

How about going at the PUP'S pace? I think it's safe to assume from your post that you've had the pup from 8 weeks and it's 16 weeks old now. So you've been able to 'train' for part of this 8 weeks due to the 'slow down'---so maybe 6 weeks of training on a very young pup is probably a safe assumption...and the pup's behavior is good, drives are good, knows how to sit, down, and come...although not consistently...what exactly do you expect from a 4 month old?

At this point everything the pup does should be in fun/games/prey/motivation...There should be no pressure whatsoever on any level. These games go for months. An average protection program takes 2-3 years. Let your puppy be a puppy. Why should a sit, down, or come be construed as 'work'? This already has a negative connotation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . The puppy shouldn't perceive any training as 'work' but a 'game' or 'fun'.

Simply put at 4 months mine are heathens with no manners or ettiquette with paws that rarely touch the ground when they're with me. These formative months are spent playing, building drive (ball, rag, tug etc) and attitude, and focus, socialization/exposure. Absolutely no formality. The sit and come are done as a game and rewarded with a tug...Once the pup fully understands the sit then I teach the down...As far as language goes...Dogs don't understand the concept of foreign languages...They respond to intonation. Whether you say asis or sitz...as far as the dog is concerned it could be all one language.

If the sit and down sound similar...then emphasize the beginning of each command since it's different, as well as raise the tone in your voice for one command and lower it for the other. But the pup should understand and be reliable in one before you teach another. To teach two new commands simultaneously, without understanding either is hardly fair to the pup.

My advice: SLOWWWWWWWWW DOWNNNNNNNNNNN.

A baby has to learn to crawl before they can walk and walk before they can run...THIS is your dog's foundation...if it's weak...the dog won't stand up to its task as an adult.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way but you did ask for directness. I hate to see a pup with this potential ruined. Sounds like a nice pup. Good Luck.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Brigita Brinac:
Aaron if I may be candid...

You can't play 'catch up' just because medical issues have 'slowed you down'...This doesn't work and will NEVER work nor is it fair to the pup.

How about going at the PUP'S pace? I think it's safe to assume from your post that you've had the pup from 8 weeks and it's 16 weeks old now. So you've been able to 'train' for part of this 8 weeks due to the 'slow down'---so maybe 6 weeks of training on a very young pup is probably a safe assumption...and the pup's behavior is good, drives are good, knows how to sit, down, and come...although not consistently...what exactly do you expect from a 4 month old?

At this point everything the pup does should be in fun/games/prey/motivation...There should be no pressure whatsoever on any level. These games go for months. An average protection program takes 2-3 years. Let your puppy be a puppy. Why should a sit, down, or come be construed as 'work'? This already has a negative connotation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . The puppy shouldn't perceive any training as 'work' but a 'game' or 'fun'.

Simply put at 4 months mine are heathens with no manners or ettiquette with paws that rarely touch the ground when they're with me. These formative months are spent playing, building drive (ball, rag, tug etc) and attitude, and focus, socialization/exposure. Absolutely no formality. The sit and come are done as a game and rewarded with a tug...Once the pup fully understands the sit then I teach the down...As far as language goes...Dogs don't understand the concept of foreign languages...They respond to intonation. Whether you say asis or sitz...as far as the dog is concerned it could be all one language.

If the sit and down sound similar...then emphasize the beginning of each command since it's different, as well as raise the tone in your voice for one command and lower it for the other. But the pup should understand and be reliable in one before you teach another. To teach two new commands simultaneously, without understanding either is hardly fair to the pup.

My advice: SLOWWWWWWWWW DOWNNNNNNNNNNN.

A baby has to learn to crawl before they can walk and walk before they can run...THIS is your dog's foundation...if it's weak...the dog won't stand up to its task as an adult.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way but you did ask for directness. I hate to see a pup with this potential ruined. Sounds like a nice pup. Good Luck.

Hey, thanks. I know I put "work" but that is my own ideal. To her its nothing but a game. I mean she gets so excited sometimes I worry a little if she is actually hurting herself. Nothing major but when I tell her the down command she'll just plop down so fast that "if they have funny bones" they'd be ringing. But aparently she doesn't give a d**n so I let her get as excited as she wants.

About the medical issue. She has like a mange type of disease. I had my vet do some skin scrapes but found nothing 2X. I am not having him do anymore as it scars the skin and freaks her out more than anything, just to find nothing, sorry, no can do. If it appears to be a mite type infestation then treat it as such then we go from there. Her hair is thinning out around her eyes, legs (front and rear) and around the muzzle. I just got some stuff in today that'll hopefull do better than what the vet prescribed. (Got it from a different vet).... The stuff my original vet gave me was not to be used on dogs but according to him has worked marvels over the years and years. Just dilute it to what the specs should be. But everytime I give it she gets horrible runny stool for a few days. I don't like that and doesn't sit well. Why lower the immune system when its already low, you know what I mean? So, this stuff (Mitaban) was given tonight. I have a hood over her head so she does not scratch. I think that is doing more damage than anything. Her crazy incessive scratching is becoming brutal to her skin. I have noticed fresh sores from her biting so much. So I dip, then throw the hood on, then put some neosporin around the legs. That way she can't bite or lick off the meds. By the next day she is better. But in a few days, back to the non stop scratching. I can't even go to take her to go to the bathroom with out her scratching before, during and after I take her out. It was that bad. Not she'll not bite on herself but rear leg scratch her belly and not nearly as bad as it was before.

The analysis of this was due to her breeding. By her being line bred, this lowered her immune system. As most dogs would fight off mite mange on their own. Every dog and human has mites on us already, its our immmune system that fights them. I read somewhere else that it is due to the T-cell gene that is lacking and that is why some dogs have it, while others without it get the mange infestation.

Anyhow, I have a few more tricks up my sleeve. After this I may purchase another product in the meantime. The mitaban treatment is supposed to go 1X/wk for 6wks. So have to see what's going to happen. The constant scratching just slowed me down a bit as well as her. So I agree, I have to go at her pace as this is the only pace I am competing with. Just wanted to see what the "average" was. You know?


As far as the sit and down being close in sound, I said that the beginning pronunciation was different and the ending was similar and she mixes them up to being "new" not necesarily to close sounding. The word for sit is pronounced "said-neea" and for down is "lay-neea". I think its that "neea" part that gets her a little confused.. But then again, repetition, maturity, age, etc will help reinforce it.

So I guess I am not too far off in general. Oh yea, the original breeder told me that I would be able to trade for another pup but they won't be ready for another 6 wks. So, I think I'll see if this is a genetic disorder for a bit longer (give it another few wks witht he treatment) and go from there. I just don't want to go through all the little things again with a fresh new pup. I like her where she is at currently. What would you do in this situation?

I am new to protection training on the extreme and will take everything you said into consideration. I have had dogs I worked with blindly and taught the dog to behave and respect people and esp kids, and then when the words are given her goes for the offender. If I call him off he'll do it. He esp, was an awesome dog. But I want to take this one to another level by educating myself and doing the right thing for this little girl I have currently.

Well, this is getting long, its late (4:25am) and I have to be up at 9:00am. So, gotta go. Thanks

I bevieve you are teaching ' sit DOWN" and " lay DOWN' . Can you say it with just sit and down ?
Also I agree with Brigit. You are going to fast and it will bite you in the butt down the line. At 4 months my dogs are playing tug, play retrieving, and working on focasing with food. that is it.
Ron

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Bryant:
I bevieve you are teaching ' sit DOWN" and " lay DOWN' . Can you say it with just sit and down ?
Also I agree with Brigit. You are going to fast and it will bite you in the butt down the line. At 4 months my dogs are playing tug, play retrieving, and working on focasing with food. that is it.
Ron

No, I am teaching her in Czech, and that's the way they pronounce their words. That's just the way their words are. Sit is Sedni and down is Lehni (both are not pronounced the way it looks).

I have heard ALOT of varying ideals.

Some say start your dog at 8 wks so it won't be new to it and will be used to hearing commands.

You and Brigita are saying to slow down and only play right now.

Then I spoke to another guy and he said don't teach the dog anything until its 2 yrs old. He says at this point you know what you are getting and that way you can start training from there. He termed them "green dogs"...

Are you and Brigita doing the same thing? Not teach the dog very much of anything until its 2? Just curious. I just feel that it is a little old to "start" training. You know what I mean?

Thanks for your help...


oh yes, almost forgot. When you say later on it will bite me in the butt what do you mean by that? That by training early the dog later down the line will not be willing to perform commands or? A guy down the street here had one that was trained well that the police dept wanted to buy it off of him as well as the air force base. He said he started young like most places you read. I read that just b/c the dog is young doesn't mean that it can't learn something. They basically said that the amount of time training will be greatly reduced due to lack of concentration (younger as you know has a shorter attention span) and the pup will not be able to perfomr physically like that of an adult dog. In his point of view, the dog can and should be taught. Its almost like a child that doesn't learn to read until he or she is 10. If taught younger then it'll make the child more apt to deal with future situations. In other words the child will be brighter. Just like kids who play with blocks and shapes, etc. They are tapping parts of the brain that induces thought processes. So with that said, won't the same playing while you learn (just like kids, you can't force a child and make him/her enjoy it). Won't that in turn make the dog smarter if you start earlier?

Thanks

Playing IS training but the pup doesn't realize that what he's learning in play is and will be used in training.

All my pups start at 6 weeks. I have one now that's 8 months old and doing Sch III routines...but it's still informal and based on play and drive building. By the time my guys are 2, they have the entire program down. BUT even though I went at my current guy's pace...I still had to slow him down as the breed is known for 'overdoing things' or doing things 'excessively'. Sometimes we have to use common sense even if our pups don't seem to have any lol.

What you might not understand is that pups are learning all the time...every minute of every day that they're awake. They also learn more when it's motivational and based on play. This also increases their desire and doesn't 'dampen their spirit' as a more formal education would... The question is HOW you approach this training...

And the fact is that your pup is having problems understanding the sit from a down...it's confusing for him...and yet you're training both simultaneously...how does this make him brighter or smarter? Intelligence is relative, breed specific, and genetic...it's not about how early or quickly you teach your pup OB commands.

The best teacher for a pup is play and exposure. They live for their food and/or toys...This is what makes training a blast and a 'quick study' for them. It's when you use 'tools' which are important to them for teaching them fundamentals; THEN you will see the progress and the desire. And as far as every day behavior goes...I expect a pup to act like a pup...as I expect a small child to act his/her age. If the dog is to be a house pet then teaching proper behavior is approached differently than for a pup which will eventually be a working/protection/sport dog.

You also have to understand that EVERY dog even within their own breed group is different and it's not realistic to compare the stage of training your pup 'should be at with others'. Whatever is right for YOUR pup is where he/she should be at. You have to remember that your pup hasn't read the 'same manual' you have.

It's the quality of your present foundational training that will determine if your dog will be up to task as an adult in varying situations. It's not the quantity or how much your dog has learned in a given timeframe.

The only limitation that a good dog has is his/her handler/owner. It's about HOW it's done; not about HOW MUCH...If the training for that pup isn't 'correct'...then he'll never reach his fullest potential no matter what...Quality over Quantity.

Good Luck.

Aaron I think you are going at a pretty nice pace most novice have a problem with the sit and the down, the advice that I've received on this board is to separate these commands. Don't do them right after each other do a sit, the a stay then a come then a down. Or leave out the stay and do a come then a down. In this way the dog is not inticipating the command so it looks like she getting them confused.

Also at 4 months continue light prey work with the tug and rags. Maybe try steping on one end of the tug and hold the other end in hand and show her how to leg bite, keep it short and upbeat.

Sounds like she is doing fine, I hope you beat that manage problem soon, I bet she miserable but having fun. Keep up the good work.

Also the guy that said don't OB train until 2 years I've heard of that type training plan. But then you have a bite trained dog that may not "stop" or "come" when called. She would have to stayed kenneled most of the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you want the dog safe around people I'd keep socailizing her early and keep training it in Obedience.

Good luck and keep training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi,
U can never tell how far u have to be with a dog at any age..........they are all individuals. Bu ti can tell u this never put to much pressure on young dogs, keep the training light and playful(what doesn't mean u can be consistent!). I have seen good talentful dogs ruined by trainers who think they have they can put pressure on the dogs.
The only thing u achieve then is that the dog gets a mental block and is not going to be usefull as a reliable working dog.
Maybe a good tip! U can learn your young dog to get a metal apport(sorry retrieve) already because puppies retrieve everything and i can be a problem to learn the dog at a later age.
Greetingsssssssssssssssssssss

Originally posted by Ab De Jonge:

Maybe a good tip! U can learn your young dog to get a metal apport(sorry retrieve) already because puppies retrieve everything and i can be a problem to learn the dog at a later age.
Greetingsssssssssssssssssssss Ab, i thought that could not be learned and it must come geneticly (like good bite)?