As far as the whole show / working debate goes, I am very much in favour of breeding towards a Univeral GSD.

The only way to achieve this is to recognise that a "working" dog has many different potential jobs and that many different qualities are needed in the dog to fullfil the various job descriptions.

I've been reading with interest, the recent posts about what beeeders are breeding for, and the types of dogs they are producing. If we are not careful, we may end up with a situation where breeders interpret the requirements of a working dog from the demands of the growing sporting public - many of whome (NOT ALL) go to breeders wanting the maddest, prey monster with fight drive potential, believing that the phrase "will not out" is an accolade! How many jobs can this type of dog do? (Oh but he'll get a 100 points in Sch protection phase, oh but he won't out - well we'll zap him until he does!!))

If we go back to Max von Stephanitz we see that his vision for the GSD was for a versitile working animal who could turn his talents to anything to aid his master. To breed such an end product, Stephanitz demanded from his breeding stock (from memory) good character (nerves), stability, tractability, aloofness, willingness to please, calmness, ability to focus, intelligence, self confidence and the ability to go from the master and work on his own. Back then they didn't have all the jargon for training (compulsion, motivational, thru' drive, avoidance) Stephanitz said that a dog must work for the love and bond he has with his master and that taining is a dog's education. Of course he did also use some of the same methods we use today including prong collars etc but he never lost sight of the primary motivator for the dog which must always be to please his master (not to get his ball or a bite). I think we have lost some of this important philosophy along the way.

Of course we have all seen the problems with the dogs produced out of show lines destined for a show-public who demand the latest fashion in ski-slope or banana backs and are so far removed in character from a GSD. This isn't the answer either!

Forget US or UK show - yeuk!! But, yes, bring together (German, DDR, Czech etc) working and show lines but not necessarily through breeding them together in the first instance.

Each breeder should instead look to improving his own stock with a true versitile working goal in mind. This is what I try to do as a responsible breeder. Generations down the line, from my German herding and tracking lines mixed with top old German show, I believe I will be able to carefully but sucessfully add the blood of more working types to achieve even more versitility.

For those who will undoubtably say "why even bother with ANY show-line blood - just use the working dogs as a starting point to improve upon" I think I have a good starting point. Our German show-herding line male is protection trained, will out, HAS engaged in a real life situation, is afraid of nothing, is completely reliable with kids / puppies, is cabable of bite-inhibition to issue a warning to an intruder - so no law suits there! Only raises one eyebrow when anything goes past the gate / fence, Flips immediately into drive if I give his trigger word and flips right out again afterwards to lick my 4 year old's face, Hips - 7:3=10, level back, 27 inches at the withers, just over 6 stone in weight. Only problem is he chases cats and is deaf whilst doing so - I'll allow him that one given all the above.

My point? There is excellent blood to be had in both spheres and we should try and preserve and work with the best of it towards a common goal. Dogs that don't measure up shouldn't be bred full stop - in either camp!

think about a person. How often is a good athelete as good looking as a model. And how often is a model as good an athelete as a an athelete.
Same thing with dogs.

Robert

Robert,

I thank that comment is a little short sighted.

In reality conformation is as important as temperament in a dog. Without the proper conformation you are going to have physical problems develop. If allowed to go too far you can get to a point that the dog can no longer work, can you say show GSD? At one point in time the GSD was 1 breed with individuals that had good conformation and could work. The problem came when people decided to sacrific one area for the other. Conformation in showing isn't really about beauty, it is about structure. Dogs can have both proper structure and work.

The problem with conformation showing is 2 fold. First, the idea that the structure of a dog is good at the extreames (working dogs are developing this problem also, only in the drive areas). Second is the difficulty in having a dog recognized for proper conformation. The idea that championships are awarded not based on the dogs adhearance to the conformation standard, but by wiining a subjective "beauty" contest has led to a majority of show dogs, in many breeds, actually being outside the standard for the breed. The dogs that win tend to be at the extreames of a single physical chacteristic. Too big, too small, too sloped,.... the list goes on. At these extreams the breed suffers. The ideal dog should be around the middle of the standard, limits described in the standard are the maximun deviation from the norm. Not a goal for breeding.

There are still breeds where working individual are also top show dogs. This isn't the case with the GSD. The result has been 4 seperate breeds of GSD. The dogs have become so disintive to really be considered a seperate breed. The physical chacteristics and temperaments are so different that you can't really refer to the dogs as one breed any more. This is sad, but has occured because each group has turned their back on the others in an attempt to increase their one chosen area. In addition people tend to specialize to the exclusion of all the other issues. It is very difficult to find a well rounded dog.

Richard,

My point was a generalization. They are always exceptions to the rules, but show people, maybe this is just AKC, seem to want weird extremes so that what I was thinking.

Robert

It is my view that the correct AKC type is the ugly to me. While I am not a fan of the German Show dogs, at least they are not appauling to my vision.
I think that the Universal Sieger, if we were to really go towards show and go, should replace the Sieger show. We would have to come up with a judging system, but something along thoses lines. A conformation show, and a SCH3 trial that is judged at a Championship level. I think that this would do a great deal and promote both show and working abiltity.

This topic is the World's Most Famous Bottomless Pit. But you guys n' gals all know that, right?

Pete

Pete,

Yeah, I know. It doesn't stop me form making the point. Sooner or later it may sink in.

Both the AKC and the SV show lines make me homicidal.

Similar feelings come to mind after reading some of the comments in BMK's post.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Both the AKC and the SV show lines make me homicidal.

better to be homicidal than suicidal....though in your case we might make an exception <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mike you're not the first one to tell me that.

But, you should understand my pain, right? Your little female looks like a show shepherd, she isn't?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

(OOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo Now that was like Basement Level 4 low, that was definately a sack ringer- a low blow, that was deep down low like the crack of my. . . Well lets just say it was low. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Definately not "below" me though.) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />