I read in one of the earlier posts, something to the affect that show dogs can and do obtain schutzhund titles, it is just that they cannot compete at the top levels. It also stated that most people cannot handle the drive of a working dog.
For the most part, show line GSD's are nothing more than an animal with very little temperment, that by way of a higher power get a title. The vast majority of dogs that come from Germany cannot get an actually earned schutzhund title. I have seen many dogs that are show dogs, that cannot pass a courage test, or retrieve a dumbell.There are few that can do police work. To fool oneself into believing that the show dogs can compete and do well at the club level, is just that, fooling yourself. There are not many that can. I have seen a few good one's but that is a very rare sight. I feel that the show line GSD as a whole is the down fall of the the German Shepherd Dog.
A common mis-belief that people have to get show-lines because they cannot handle a working line GSD, is just I feel a load of salemanship. The type of dog that only a good trainer can live and work with is hard to find. Most people can handle a GSD from working lines. Look at litters of pups, alot of them never turn out to be great workers, they would just function fine in the home world.
I feel that the time has come for both the working breeders, and the show breeders to stop breeding the garbage that both bloodlines have, and really start focusing on the GSD as a whole. I feel a great way would be for USA to implement a ZTP type system of breeding, since we are most likley going to drop the working requirment anyway in the breed registry.
Look at Fedor Arminus; Jugan Hansen bred to him for a few litters, and had good results. I have not seen the big show-line folk really try to bring better work abiltiy into thier bloodlines in Germany or America for that matter.

What are we talking about here?

Sure there are plenty of sickly, weak, spooky dogs that can get titles. There are ways to train them and it could be considered a skill to do so. I don't think anybody has a problem with training dogs to their maximum potential. These dogs can do Schutzhund or agility, but could any one of these dogs bite in a real situation? Bite a violent man that is intent on fighting? I don't think so. No way. . .these dogs won't have what it takes no matter what training you put into them.

We don't want to breed these dogs right? We shouldn't breed these dogs. Everyone is in agreement? No, of course not, THAT is what is so sad.

I don't disagree that these aren't dogs for the police; but Michael was saying they can't have fun even at the club level of sport, and that's not correct.

I never said all, but for the most part. It I think that is true. Sure if you spend time and years training you will get the title, and sure there are a few dogs that can take training as good as the working line dogs, and sure there are crappers in the wroking circles, but you will not find many dogs like Orry, even with the bad nerves coming out of the show line dogs. And for the most part, the dogs that are show dogs, a vast majority, either require a tremendous amount o skill to train, or the title was fudged.

Any comments on what I said about factors involved in larger GSDs and their general agility?

Richard,
check your P.M.

Richard,you said that the stacked position was the natural way a dog would stand at position. This was my point,when i see a german showdog being stacked this is not how the dog appears naturaly.If you look at a stacked dog,then take the same dog and just walk him around and stop,this is how he looks naturaly.There is a big difference in appearence. Am i missing the point here, is the stacked position how the dog would appear in motion, or how he is to appear standing at attention?

Sch3FH2,
Well said about training talent,
good training goes a long way and patience is what a good trainer is going to need a lot of.

Sure training takes alot of patience. But I still feel that this does not display the GSD at it's best. When taking a weaker dog, and giving it to a talenteted trainer, you are not really displaying the ability of the dog , but that of the trainer. This can still be fun for people, there is no doubt.
With that said, I feel that some of the show line dogs are not brought to thier potential, as the owners are not intrested in developing the drives of the dog. They train them just to pass a title, so what you get is a poor picture.

While I will say that the point of topline makes a diffrence, I still feel that size plays a role in the dogs agiltiy in most cases. Most dogs over say 95 pounds, at least GSD are not going to be suoer fast over an obstacle. There are exceptions but I think this is a general rule of thumb