The sleeve tied to a rope and swung around in a circle. What is the purpose of this? I tried this training tactic with the dogs one at a time. I got simiular but difference results.

Here are the results.
The GSD given the command to watch-em - packem chased the prey item around me the first time until he caught it and the tug or war began, I gave him his prize. He pack it around then placed it on the ground placing his paws on it and started pulling and biting. He was outted.

The second time started the same with exception instead of chasing the prey around me, he immeadiately turned and caught in head on as it appeared on the rotating side, shortening the chase and .... as written before without the paw on the sleeve bite.

The Rottie was placed in a sit and when given the command to engaged would not chase the prey item around me, but would wait to engage it as it pasted in front of me in a semi circle stopping approximately 45% in front of me waiting for prey to crosse her path. Once she bit, of course the same tug....praise and prize. But here were it changed she would toss her the prey item from side to side viciously swing it around, then place it on the ground and back in the air side to side. Both times her result were the same. Both outted into a sit, one at a time of course.

Both seem to enjoy this but they obviously had different frame of mind. On the bite and the carry I praise them, which enhanced their efforts.

Question Did I set this up right? I didn't tie them out, should I have? There was no barking or lunging, just intenses stare and waiting for the release. Then chase and bite.

Is this exercise to enhance the barking and the alert stage? Did I blow past the one of the purpose of the exercise?

What should this tell me about each dogs temperment? How can I enhance or use this information that I'll gather from you guys to improve their training. I enjoyed it and I think they did too. I like to get some help to improve on this, or set it up right. So the results can be read better.

Thanks in advance
I think this board is were I got this tactic, it could have been in reading or from another board.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you should have an idea of what you are doing BEFORE you start screwing around?

Yes, it is something you do on a tie out or with the handler holding the dog's lead. It is to help a dog learn to keep a grip on the sleeve. By maintaining pressure on the sleeve at all times you ensure that a dog won't want to drop it.

VanCamp,

You are one funny SOB. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chuck, some people make it easy.

I'm gonna try something that in all actuallity, never works for me so please stand by as I may experience technical difficulties: I'm gonna be nice.

Don, and to all others to whom this may apply, I have a few recommendations based on limited observations based on information provided. I also speak from a point of experience.

To start training is a large and deep commitment on many facets. First, you are dealing with a warm blooded animal with, I don't care how many arguments this starts, feelings. Because of this, there is an extensive MORAL obligation to the animal and other trainers to have an idea of where to start in addition to a general over view with distinct intermediate goals to include how to see your plan to it's fruition and knowing what to do. I am the type of person ( often refered to as "gold" or "A+++") to jump in head first and sink or swim. My first attempts at training were the same. I would never recommend this to anyone.

Here is something I do frequently, I recently attended a workshop without a dog. I drew a lot of stares but here is the logic behind it: I learn a lot more and a lot more completely with empty hands. I have the time to THINK about the theory being offered and know my dog well enough to know what will or will not work with him; I don't have to actually do it on scene. I rather see something 10-12 times than see it twice / three times and then have to get my dog, feed my dog, groom my dog, wait in line, watch my dog, watch my dog around other dogs, watch other dogs around my dog, police after my dog..( I think you get the point). What I'm suggesting here is that perhaps education without repetition is the easiest way to learn in the beginning. That should resolve the issue of not knowing how or what to do during any particular training session.

Another important point I was taught by Bob Frampton, Chris Banke, Randy Kromer and others many years ago is that BEFORE beginning any training session, those involved, even if it is just the handler doing prey pole work, objectives for that session must be clear and concise. What is to be accomplished determines the path there. Realistic goals and evaluations are priceless.

As important as knowing what to do is knowing why to do it or why it works. In the example set forth, you are trying to stimulate prey drive. The back tie prevents the dog from biting the object of his prey drive, the sleeve, indescriminately. This builds frustration and intensity at a very elementary level. This should have been preceded, regardless of age because this is a developmental issue, by rag and tug work. I certainly to not propose to lay out a program here but your conveyed inexperience has me concerned. There are mistakes that can be made from which there is no recovery, again, the moral obligation aspect.

NOBODY, least of all me, is mistake free. I believe all will concur. May I recommend you leave your dog at home, pack up the car with your training partner(s)with their dogs at home as well, and STUDY a reputable trainer at a small workshop. Travel as often as time and money will allow to see as many different trainers as possible and return to those you like. Books have their place in dog training....just not in the first year or two. Go to as many trials as possible, heaven knows that when people are successful they LOVE to tell you how they did it and how they did ALL BY THEMSELVES. This will give you an education on what NOT to do as well, which is often times just as valuable.

You may also try video taping the event for future reference, provided there are no prohibitions in place by the host. I continually review tapes of past training sessions with retired dogs for insight on my newest prospect. I hope this is some help to you. Keep us up to speed. G.

Gordon, The suggestions you have made are fantastic. I know from experience not with dogs but other areas of my life both as a teacher and student, that by simply watching others and listening to the solutions and suggestions given by a knowledgeable teacher/mentor to others can be invaluable. As you said your mind is not cluttered with you own stuff. Sometimes hearing it said to someone else makes "the light go off" for you so to speak. Great suggestions!

Debbie

The most difficult aspect of this philosophy is choosing the right teachers. Generally, I found that those who spend the most time and effort convincing you of their qualifications are also trying to convince themselves. Many of the better minds on this board 1)don't need introduction and 2)shut up and train. I would be happy to provide a list of those whom I trust via PM. Nothing that starts off poorly can end with any degree of relative success. Gordo. I goota stop, this is getting way too heady and those who know me will swear someone is using my name as a nom de plume.

Gordon & Van Camp

Thanks for the benifit of your knowledge, I'll back track and try this exercise again. I take it trial and error rates pretty low on your list of training theorys. We are not involved in competition sports so I don't think there was any harm done.

And now when anybody picks up the sleeve they almost do back flips wanting to get at it. But they don't waiting for the release, they spin, jump up on their front legs stare and bark. You can see mark improvement in their attitude. So the mis-use of this exercise has still brought about positive results. Did I get lucky, I know my dogs would not run or be startled by this.

I would have never tried this with a dog that would be harmed or frighten by this.

I really think it will enhance the decoy runaway (the recapture of the decoy) after detention.

You are right I should have referred back to its source, I had a feeling I was missing something.
In any event it stirred their prey drive, it enhanced their bite, we practiced their Out and they were able to wait until commanded given to pounce on the moving prey so we practiced our protection commands.

Going by the post tying them out would have enhanced their prey drive, taught a full bite and taught not to let go of the sleeve.

I like a lot of people on this board have to search far and wide for protection training workshops.

There are plenty of protection workshops in Texas but most people around this part think unless its a police service dog, a protection dog is a thing of the past. I have attended some of the PT work shops and have several tapes. But none of them employed the swinging sleeve technique.

So I question its purpose, I knew that this would not hurt them because if a leaf moves the GSD will almost give chase, in short they have good prey drive. Have your ever tried restacking a wood pile with a prey driven animal around. I have to down him or send him away to get him to stop bring the damn logs back to me.

I appreciate your input, thanks that is the information that I needed to know.

Sometimes I feel like an Vampire feeding on you guys pool of knowledge.

I'm not making light of anything, I was just ignorant to the true purpose of this exercise. I knew it inspired prey drive, I did'nt really know that they should be tied out to enhance their barking, bite and hold on the sleeve (Vancamps input).

Thanks to you all, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also I apologize for jumping the gun, and that insulted you pros, that work so hard to get it right. We do appreciate you.

Gordon wrote ...
What I'm suggesting here is that perhaps education without repetition is the easiest way to learn in the beginning. That should resolve the issue of not knowing how or what to do during any particular training session.

Gordon that is a very good idea.

But if I was to wait to fully understand all there is to know about dog training there would be no time for actual training. I'm the kind of person that learns from doing, this is probably a fault.

I've noticed that some of the experts here sometime argue on the effectiveness or real purpose of training techniques. So even when people are accomplished they differ or question.
And there will always be as many ways to accomplishing the same goal as there are people with ideas.

I am not an expert or a good trainer, I worked dogs for fun (the key word here that gets me in trouble here) and for control and trying to find out what they can't or won't do.

I understand why some get upset, they study hours, spend thousands of dollars to attain a professional status this their trade. And some newbie trying and messing up his training up, I must crawl before I can walk.

To the general public we make quite a team, but from a competitive level, I admitt we are unpolished probably due to me as I've mentioned several times. But I get compliment on how strong, clean and well behaved they are. So I do take good care of them, they are my best friend. If I hurt them it would hurt me and this is the reason I ask these questions. Trying give them a chance to acheive whats availble. I'm not rich so I can't fly around to every PTW so I have to caught whats near and whats here or this board.

Theres an S&R group that has been training for years here I've been asked to bring my dogs, but because of this boards suggestion in past. I may not because they have had bite training now I can and have called them off at full charge. But its been mentioned why take a chance.

Power is knowledge you guys keep me protected and charged up. I could only imagine how I would feel if I knew what you guys know. But its an ocean out there and I have only tea cup to sip from.

After reading your private E-mail, Gordon I've been pounce on harder then that. Thanks for being so kind. I know you don't want people to know you can be kind, but the words getting out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again.

I have a question that is somewhat related to this topic. I realize a lot would depend on what the dog brings to the training interms of drive, confidence, etc., but I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the pros of cons of focusing more on using a puppy sleeve (on the arm as opposed to on a line and progressing from there) rather than teaching the pup/young dog that the prey object is separate from the helper as in when you use a rag or tug on a line. It seems that it would be advantageous to get a pup on the puppy sleeve as soon as its feasible to do so.