I thought I'd start a new thread here rather than add to the existing thread on GSDvsdobes.

Van Camp says in his post that this is a working dog forum - however, there are many jobs that dogs do.

I know of a Rottie who is a PAT dog at a residential geriatric/psychiatric unit He is the highlight of the residents day.

I also know of a Goldie who is a regular blood donor at the local animal hospital. How many dogs are there that are laid back enough to donate blood without any sedation?

Are these also not "working"dogs?

Just my 10p worth.

Gwen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gwen,

But how does breeding a dog that is incapable of doing what it is supposed to do prohibit those "jobs"?

Let's look at some standards, descriptions of the "ideal" far a breed, by the AKC:

Rottweiler:

He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making him especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog.

Boxer:

Developed to serve as guard, working and companion dog, he combines strength and agility with elegance and style.

These are of paramount importance in the Boxer. Instinctively a "hearing" guard dog, his bearing is alert, dignified and self-assured. With family and friends, his temperament is fundamentally playful, yet patient and stoical with children. Deliberate and wary with strangers, he will exhibit curiosity but, most importantly, fearless courage if threatened. However, he responds promptly to friendly overtures honestly rendered. His intelligence, loyal affection and tractability to discipline make him a highly desirable companion.

Bull Mastiff:

The breed was developed in England by gamekeepers for protection against poachers.

Fearless and confident yet docile. The dog combines the reliability, intelligence, and willingness to please required in a dependable family companion and protector.

Doberman:

Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

Giant Schnauzer:

Composed, watchful, courageous, easily trained, deeply loyal to family, playful, amiable in repose, and a commanding figure when aroused. The sound, reliable temperament, rugged build, and dense weather-resistant wiry coat make for one of the most useful, powerful, and enduring working breeds.

Komondor:

The working Komondor lives during the greater part of the year in the open, and his coat serves to help him blend in with his flock and to protect him from extremes of weather and beasts of prey.

Nature and Characteristics: The Komondor is a flock guardian, not a herder. Originally developed in Hungary to guard large herds of animals on the open plains, the Komondor was charged with protecting the herd by himself, with no assistance and no commands from his master. The mature, experienced dog tends to stay close to his charges, whether a flock or family; he is unlikely to be drawn away from them in chase, and typically doesn't wander far. While reserved with strangers, the Komondor is demonstrative with those he loves, selflessly devoted to his family and his charges, and will defend them against any attack. The combination of this devotion to all things dear to him and the desire to take responsibility for them produces an excellent guardian of herds or home, vigilant, courageous, and very faithful.

Kuvasz:

Always ready to protect loved ones even to the point of self-sacrifice. Extremely strong instinct to protect children. Polite to accepted strangers, but rather suspicious and very discriminating in making new friends. Unexcelled guard, possessing ability to act on his own initiative at just the right moment without instruction. Bold, courageous and fearless. Untiring ability to work and cover rough terrain for long periods of time.

Beauceron:

He retains a high degree of his ancestral instinct to guard home and master. Although he is reserved with strangers, he is loving and loyal to those he knows.

Black Russian Terrier:

The character and temperament of the Black Russian Terrier is of utmost importance. The Black Russian Terrier is a calm, confident, and courageous dog with a self-assurance which sometimes is rather aloof toward strangers. They are highly intelligent, extremely reliable. They were bred to guard and protect.

German Pinscher:

A working dog, German Pinschers are known for their vermin hunting skills and instinctual desire to protect home and family. The German Pinscher's natural hunting abilities give them a keen sense of prey, drive and determination. The German Pinscher is of strong will and mind and can be manipulative and stubborn when they want their own way. They are territorial and can be quite possessive of their owners and property.

Neopolitan Mastiff:

Over the centuries, breeders of the mastino in the Neapolitan area of southern Italy focused on breeding guards for their homes and estates. They created a breed that retained the giant size, heavy, loose skin and dewlap. This was an animal that was a stay-at-home type, and was good with the family but was bred to detect unwanted intruders and to deter them from the property under their care. Indeed, many say that the Neapolitan Mastiff's unique type was developed purposely as an alarmingly ugly dog, whose looks alone were enough to deter any intruder.

GSD:

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand.

Mal:

Correct temperament is essential to the working character of the Belgian Malinois. The breed is confident, exhibiting neither shyness nor aggressiveness in new situations. The dog may be reserved with strangers but is affectionate with his own people. He is naturally protective of his owner's person and property without being overly aggressive.

Groendale:

The Belgian Sheepdog should reflect the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness and devotion to master. To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be added protectiveness of the person and property of his master. He should be watchful, attentive, and always in motion when not under command. In his relationship with humans, he should be observant and vigilant with strangers, but not apprehensive.

Tervuren:

The Belgian Tervuren reflects the qualities of intelligence, courage, alertness and devotion to master. In addition to his inherent ability as a herding dog, he protects his master's person and property without being overtly aggressive. He is watchful, attentive, and usually in motion when not under command.

Bouvier:

He has been used as an ambulance and messenger dog. Modern times find him as a watch and guard dog as well as a family friend, guardian and protector.

Briard:

retains a high degree of his ancestral instinct to guard home and master.

Caanan Dog:

The Canaan Dog is a herding and flock guardian dog native to the Middle East. He is aloof with strangers, inquisitive, loyal and loving with his family.

Puli:

By nature an affectionate, intelligent and home-loving companion, the Puli is sensibly suspicious and therefore an excellent watchdog.

Notice any themes in the description of the "ideal" in these breeds? "Watch dog", "Guardian", "Family Guardian and Protector" all terms to describe the "ideal temperament". How often can this be said of many of these breeds as seen today? In many of the standards the importance of the origional temperament is being removed in the Standards. For instance the Doberman. A breed designed as a compainon/protector, and yet there are only 2 oblique references to that purpose. Maybe that is because in the U.S. those chacteristics are so far lost? What is next, move the breed to the Non-Sporting Group with the Standard Poodle (A former retriever that has completely lost that function in the breed)?

Richard.

Nice post - I see the reasoning and understand what you are saying.

Quote "But how does breeding a dog that is incapable of doing what it is supposed to do prohibit those "jobs"?

What I believe is that times change and roles evolve. When I was young women did not have jobs and stayed home to be houswifes and mothers. That does not happen anymore.

I think the same is applying more and more to our dogs.

Were GSD's bred to be guide dogs? - I think not. Can they do the job - of couse,brilliantly.

Is a schtzhund dog a working dog or a sports dog?

Labradors & Retrievers & spaniels are gun dogs -their purpose retrieving game- they are also guide dogs, seizure dogs , sar dogs and can adapt to virtually any role.

My grandfather trained working border collies all his life - how many b.c. now work sheep? Border Collies are now used more for flyball and agility than anything else.

How many GSD's are actually herding dogs these days. I've never seen one.

What I'm getting at is and probably not doing it very well is that our dogs are having "new jobs" and are smart enough to do so very well. Hope my rambling makes sense.

Gwen

May I also add a couple quotes from my DPCA paper I recieved along with my registration regarding the temperment of the Dobe:

"Some early specimens were quite sharp and aggressive, but today's Doberman temperament has undergone a gradual but steady decrease in over sharpness.

Not all Dobermans have the same temperament. A Doberman Pinscher of correct breed temperament is trustworthy with his master's children, friends and company. Doberman Pinschers are not well suited to being kennel dogs or isolated outdoor dogs, nor is it advisable to house two adult males together.

Also - the use of the doberman pinscher:

"Today the Doberman is mostly kept as a family dog and protector of his master's home. They are also used as therapy dogs, guide dogs, service dogs and search and rescue dogs..."

Why would anyone want a "working" dog that is totally untrustworty with people? That doesn't make sense.

Gwen,

If the intended purpose is other than what the dog is bred for, why not get a dog that as a proper representative of the breed meets the requirements? The purposes of the dogs have not changed, the dogs have been bred, away from the origional purpose to a new purpose. Are protection dogs no longer needed? Is it no longer required for a dog to protect it's masters home and person? Not where I live. In addition how much benefit have these breeds seen? Doberman: Fear based aggression, Wobblers syndrome, skin diseases, von Willebrand's disease, Cardiomyopathy, hypothyroidism, PRA and that is mostly from the DPCA web page. Yep the conformation folks have done the breed a great service.

The other jobs you mention like guide dogs, SAR, and others come from a function of the dogs ability work. It is based on the drives involved in doing the initial function of the breed. How many of the "Show line" dogs can perform these functions.... I doubt many. Dogs are quite capable of performing new functions, but do you really think a American Show line dog is going to be able to function as a guide dog? How about SAR work.

Yeah the BC is used more for fly ball and agility than for herding now, but in 10 years.... The very things that make the dogs good for those sports is what makes them good for herding sheep. The bottom line is that often the conformation folks trade on the abilities of the working dogs, but do dogs of their lines perform those functions?

And no, no working dog person wants a dog that is unreliable with their children, but do you need to gut the temperament of the breed for them to be safe with the kids? Not according to the DPCA:

During the latter part of the 19th Century, the Germans were primarily concerned with function, rather than appearance. Their goal was to develop a super dog, capable of the ultimate in protection and companionship. Selection for breeding was based on the bravest, the keenest, the quickest and the toughest, and if these requirements were met the most loyal. These headstrong rowdies were variously known as "Dobermann's dogs," or "Thuringia Pinschers," and were sharp, aggressive with other dogs and distrustful of strangers.

This is the description of the breed as origionaly found, later they became overly "sharp" and needed their temperament "fixed". The net result? how many Dobes could you count on to protect your family? When was the last time you saw a Dobe as guide dog? Please.....

There are breeds that are available to meet any sort of requirement, based on the proper temperament for the breed. But it may not be the breed you have decided on knowing nothing about the breed.

Pauline, after you spend 80% of your training time trying to convince the dog that you are more interesting than the person down the street you will have a different perspective. Or at least that's what happened with me. Hopefully my next dog will be indifferent to strangers.

The dogs are not untrustworthy with other people, they just don't care if you are there or not. I bet that the info you are getting from show people is skewed because the working dobe owners aren't too fond of them, and when the show people come to look at the dogs they pick up on their owner's cues and keep an eye on the show people <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . The show people interpret this as the dog being untrustworthy when it's actually showing a beautiful bond to an irritated human.

In contrast, I always wonder if Auster has forgotten who I am when I come home from college, because she greets me and a stranger the same way (licking, leaning against you, the whole bit).

What is this, attack of the pet jerks today??

Working ability and aggression in our guarding breeds does certainly not mean they are not trustworthy with children. Quite the opposite. My best dog I have owned was sharp, aggressive, dominate, and had drive that went on for days. . .he also lived in my home WITH MY CHILDREN.

Do I give a crap if I can trust my dog with strangers? Nope. . .I got the dogs to keep unwanted strangers the hell out of my life. If you come up to the house and walk through my front door uninvited your next stop will be the emergency room. It I let you in, the dogs will completely ignore you after a sniff or two and you are one of the gang as long as you stay friendly.

You jackasses are misinformed and stuck on this vision of the true working dog being a vicious dog. That is just not true. If anything the show/pet bred dogs are the ones who have those problems because confidence and sureness were bred out of the animals in a trade off for pretty top line, or deep chest.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> That BS about changing jobs in our evolving world? That is crap and an EXCUSE used by pet/show breeders to justify their complete disregard for the standards of the dogs they breed and the intended purposes of those dogs.

Why on god's green earth do we want every dog to have the same fluffy, sweet, pet temperament?? All the dogs in the UK shows, all the dogs in the AKC shows. . .they are the same damn dog, just look different. They have reduced every breed they get their hands on to a pet companion, with lower levels of energy, no drive, no real confidence or sureness, and sweety temperaments. Those are the good ones, the rest turn out to be fearful, submissive, sensitive SPOOKS, that can barely deal with living in a home environment. Let alone one with any level of stress. . .

I'll tell you guys one more thing as well. You take 100 working line dogs and 100 show line dogs. More working dogs will be able to do ANYTHING you ask them to do than the show/pet dogs.

That includes assistance work, guide work, visiting nursing homes, playing with kids in burn units, whatever you ask of them they can do. Better than any pet/show bred dog. Because they have a higher level of drive for training, they have a much higher level of sureness and confidence, and they are tough minded and more intelligent.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

VanCamp, you never disappoint us with a bland debate!!!
>Do I give a crap if I can trust my dog with >strangers? Nope

This all revolves around the individual's definition of what a "working dog" is. I think we can respect your description of a dog's temperament and abilities as being the pinnacle and highest goals desired for a true working dog. But the rest of us have the "left overs" to work with and we give the title "working" to our dogs when they willingly perform a task that could be done much better by a true working dog,,but is achieved none the less by our "not so good" mushy dogs. You are looking at our small achievements working with these less than perfect dogs. Yes, many of us want our "working dogs" to be good with strangers, otherwise the dog is going to be dead. We don't like the idea of dumping a dog that can be trained to fit our needs. Susan

 Quote:

Originally posted by Susan Jenulis:
VanCamp, you never disappoint us with a bland debate!!!
>Do I give a crap if I can trust my dog with >strangers? Nope

This all revolves around the individual's definition of what a "working dog" is. I think we can respect your description of a dog's temperament and abilities as being the pinnacle and highest goals desired for a true working dog. But the rest of us have the "left overs" to work with and we give the title "working" to our dogs when they willingly perform a task that could be done much better by a true working dog,,but is achieved none the less by our "not so good" mushy dogs. You are looking at our small achievements working with these less than perfect dogs. Yes, many of us want our "working dogs" to be good with strangers, otherwise the dog is going to be dead. We don't like the idea of dumping a dog that can be trained to fit our needs. Susan

Whoa, can we back that bus up? Who said anything about dumping the dog? The argument is that breeders call their dogs "working dogs" because they aren't show quality, or because they have a TT and a CD. I think Vancamp, and I know I, want to see a little more than that before we call it a working dog.

I have gone down the "working" dog line before. I didn't dump any of them, but not a one could have worked or protected a hampster. Did that make them bad pets? No. They were fine pets, but should not be bred. Why do we need to be breeding pets? If you want a pet I can set you up with a shelter full. No, they may not be of a working breed, but they will do the same thing those so called "working" dogs will do, Bark and run...

My "working" dog is from the pound. Everytime I bring him out for protection I get compliments. Same with OB. Would I ever breed him?(if he HAD nuts) No. He is a nice dog and fun for me to learn stuff with, but is not a super specimen. That is the argument here. Not that people shouldn't own foo foo dogs, it is that they shouldn't breed them and call them what they are not.

I had an interesting conversation with a Show GSD breeder last spring, and laughed when he informed me that working dogs were just the dogs out of the show litters that were too ugly for the ring. There are people who believe that, and they breed.

Oh, and there are dobes in guide work Richard. My best friend has bred foo-foo dobermans since I was twelve and donted half a litter to Joanna Walker- who heads up Pilot Dogs. For that particular type of work, the lower drive is good.

The real argument is that you do not have to have "left overs" people shouldn't be aiming to produce "left overs"....

And personally... I am with the campman when he said he didn't care if the dog likes strangers. I do not mean that I can not introduce my dog to a stranger. I mean if someone lets themselves in, I would be more than glad to see him give them the teeth.

There is a SAR unit in my area(it was commented on the other day) At the time I was going out with them as a "victim", they were all Working line GSD's except one. She was not show lines, but was all American lines. She was also the only dog in the group that ever bit anyone(an FBI agent in the ass). She has a good nose for the job, but she also is the only dog in the group they won't use to look for lost children.