It would be interesting to hear what people consider should be the role of a police dog,there is so much being written in the press around the world about not allowing the dogs to bite,only bark,if the criminal has a gun,I am sure he will drop it if the dog barks LOL
can we keep this to sensible replies

Dogs are very important in police work. "You can call a dog back, but you can't call a bullet back." No machine can do what the dog can. A dog can find lost people, track felons, search for narcotics and explosives!!! Tell me what machine can do that? Machines cannot build a bond with humans either like the dog can. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Paul,
I don't think any police handler would use their dog to search for a KNOWN armed subject.
There is a certain amount of exposure to both handler and dog, conducting any search. I would rather have a dog check a closet door, under a bed..before I entered the room.
Bark +Hold vs Handler Control is a policy decision based mostly on the idea it will limit liability lol. As a officer saftey issue a B+H dog is better than no dog at all.

Jack Callahan wrote: I don't think any police handler would use their dog to search for a KNOWN armed subject. There is a certain amount of exposure to both handler and dog, conducting any search. I would rather have a dog check a closet door, under a bed..before I entered the room. Bark +Hold vs Handler Control is a policy decision based mostly on the idea it will limit liability lol. As a officer saftey issue a B+H dog is better than no dog at all.

***** Actually most K–9 handlers will use their dog to SEARCH for a known-armed suspect. But once he’s located, the dog should be recalled and the apprehension made my armed police officers.

***** As for the discussion of find and bite vs. find and bark methods of deployment; there is much misunderstanding about the terms. To some a find and bark dog will ONLY bark at a suspect he locates, he will not bite under any circumstances. To others a find and bark dog will bark unless the suspect flees, or attacks the dog or the handler. To some a find and bite dog will bite if he can get to the suspect, if not, he’s supposed to bark to alert the handler that he’s made a find. There are many other terms applied these methods or training and deployment.

***** Before we can have a meaningful discussion about the methods of deployment and training we need to define the terms.

***** I will say that my own PSD was trained for the find and bite. If he couldn’t bite the suspect because he wasn’t available (that means the dog couldn’t get to him) he was supposed to bark. He rarely did. But he scratched, dug and whined so much that I knew he’d made a find.

***** But now I train dogs to find and bark. They’ll bark whether or not the suspect is available to be bitten. They’ll bite if commanded to either at the start of the search (in which case they’re find and bite dogs) or after they find the suspect. They’ll also bite if the suspect flees or attacks the dog or handler. I think this is the safest method of deployment for the handler, the team and the public. It may not be the safest for the dog. But if the suspect takes the dog out at least the handler will know.

Lou,
I'm still learning how to read this board, just saw your response.
I stand corrected, and agree, most handlers will SEARCH for a armed suspect. And anyone who believes a suspect isn't or couldn't be armed is a fool or a idiot. I had more of a baricaded suspect situation in mind, where using a dog would not be my first choice.
Dogs are much better equiped to locate hidden suspects, police officers better equiped (hopefully) to deal with them.
I really have no desire to discuss policy issues of the Bark+Hold/Find+Bite, it has been done to death. And I'm amazed at how many people have strong opinions on the subject.
I worked Find +Bite dogs for ten years, and my definition is, I think the same as yours....Dog should engage on find,pull suspect from hiding...or alert by barking/ biting at the hide. My definition of a Bark+Hold alert is- barking at hide/still suspect,biting in response to movement or assault.
I am interested in why your unit went to a Bark+Hold, if you see it better suited to certain type of dog, how you train it? How much movement would you think is acceptable in a police bark and hold?

jack callahan wrote: I stand corrected, and agree, most handlers will SEARCH for a armed suspect. And anyone who believes a suspect isn't or couldn't be armed is a fool or a idiot. I had more of a baricaded suspect situation in mind, where using a dog would not be my first choice.

LC: Whew, I caught up with this post just now, 4 months later!!!. what you've written is true. There are a few SWAT dogs around but they are very rare. They need to be a special kind of dog to do that work.

jack callahan wrote: I am interested in why your unit went to a Bark+Hold, if you see it better suited to certain type of dog, how you train it? How much movement would you think is acceptable in a police bark and hold?

LC: I went to it because I’m convinced that it’s safer for the handler. The situation for the suspect or an innocent person who happens to be found by the dog is pretty much the same. But with the find and bark dog the handler knows that a find has been made by the dog’s barking. With either deployment, the handler should recall the dog and order the suspect from his hiding place.

LC: As far as how much movement the dog should allow, it's really academic. In training we have the dog remain in front of the decoy and bark. But in real life the dog is almost never in that position. He's recalled quickly once the dog has made the find.

LC: I think that any dog that can pass my stake out test can be trained for a find and bark.

Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
(UnclLou@aol.com)

I disagree with a find and bite dog not alerting as well. If you train the dog initially to alert strong before giving him the bite a find and bite gives as good a response.
I train our teams to get a bite only one in every 5 sessions in tracking, area search, building search so the other 4 are find and alert from the building or other place of concealment and transport to a vehicle. and they respond as well as any find and bark team I have seen. They still do know however to go in and detain without command a subject in hiding if need be.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Kanto:
I disagree with a find and bite dog not alerting as well. If you train the dog initially to alert strong before giving him the bite a find and bite gives as good a response.
I train our teams to get a bite only one in every 5 sessions in tracking, area search, building search so the other 4 are find and alert from the building or other place of concealment and transport to a vehicle. and they respond as well as any find and bark team I have seen. They still do know however to go in and detain without command a subject in hiding if need be.

I have to jump in here. The B&H has many many more reasons to exist than barking at a suspect. It does indeed provide a more appropriate behavior in the PSD in locating and dealing with the suspect. It is the only way in existance to diminish the prey behavior in a dog in the capture phase of the search, a necesity for an appropraite dog in police work. It produces a dog working in fight drive (or call it proper defense or whatever your particular vocabulary is) which produces the behaviors of escalating the fight when fought by the dog. in prey behaviors the dog seeks weakness and responds most strongly to weakness (predators chase and consume the weak and ill in their non-domesticated forms). The dog learns to flush prey from its hole, chase grab and vanquish that prey item. If the prey is dangerous fight drive either must be present or switched to. But, when in conjuction with prey drive in a large dose it produces the greatest intensity at the point of weakness by the suspect not the greatest intensity at the point of greatest resistance! Yes, you can train PSD's in prey and they will indicate in prey bite in prey and many will also fight well when fought on top of it if properly selection tested. But, the above post displays an all too frequent "bite reward" style of work. The withoutholding of the bite simply vaults the dog's prey drive higher through frustration, it doesn't promote fighting characteristics. We must be responsible for applying and training our dogs in the same fashion we work as police officers. That is to respond to resistance and combative behaviors at an appropriate level and couple both the handlers control of their dog with proper training in apprehension for this approach. Fight drive is also easier to control than prey drive (how many peopple are choking their dogs off their toy and cannot make them spit it out on command)which doesn't hinge so heavily on the handler dog relationship. Just my .02