I have a few points that might provoke some discussion here. First: on the discussion about warning signs, and whether or not to use them. This child was bitten after crossing a privacy fence. The child lived next door apparently. My point here is how someone lives next door and has never been introduced to the dog in the first place. My GSD knows every kid in the nieghborhood, and he knows which adults "own" each of those kids. My nieghbors routinely have contact with Luke. He knows who he likes, and who he doesn't care for, from personal experiences.
Secondly: I grew up with GSDs, and have been around MWDs alot, and have had a few dogs (Rott, Bouvier, GWP) as an adult. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed by any means, BUT I would not keep any dog that doesn't recognise the difference between a child and an adult, aggression is one thing, and it has it's place. But a dog's job is to protect children, period. There are some limitations to the dog"s judgement, as any of you that have read my posts can see from my own situations, but Luke DOES distinguish between children and "adult sized" humans. All of my dogs have shown this distinction, call it "instinct", or "cognitive thought", call it "reasoning", call it whatever you like. My father always told me that a dog that can't figure this single, solitary item out ought not to be kept, period, much less bred. I have seen MWDs and Police K9s that would openly defy the handler over such a command as to engage a child. Where is the whole "Brains & Brawn" thing here? Being military I know that there is no substitute for plain, naked aggression sometimes, but people have to think, and so do dogs, at least the instinct to defend children ought to override a situation. I am by no means a K9 expert, but this is my simple, learned opinion.

With my dogs, they know the neighbors kids, and two dogs could care less about them,the other considers it her personal duty to watch over them when they are outside, and warn when a stranger is near. I took pains to introduce all three dogs first off the property, then on my property, with positive reinforcment. One dog actually drools when he sees kids! Ya gotta love classical conditioning.

I also took great pains to educate my neighbors and their kids about proper behaviour around dogs. The kids, and the adults, but esp. the kids, know to ignore the dogs, no petting through the fence, no patting the fence (I have a neighbor who thinks being friendly to the dog means to tap the fence, stare in the dog's eyes, and say 'hey, hey' is soft,rapid speech. A little education on fence agitation was in order there). But of course, my dogs are rarely out without me, and even then I can see them. There is a middle school nearby, just too much risk.

I will disagree with you about putting any dog down that shows aggression to children, depending upon what type of aggression it is. If it is fear aggression, and the dog cannot be brought under control, yes. Better for the dog, better for the child it might have bitten and caused irrepairable harm. But if you are talking about prey drive or territorial issues, or even dominance issues, these are not the dog's problem per say, and not a good reason to put down a good working dog, provided the potential for control is there in the handler. It is up to the handler to recognise these problems, and train the dog, and keep kids out of your yard, or give the dog to someone who can handle these issues. Children are weird to dogs. They behave erratically, have sudden outbursts, and sometimes, poor impulse control. And they act aggressivly, especially when there are more than two or three. Go to the local school yard and view it from your dog's point of view, and think how a dog with high prey and high defensive drive would view it. It is sobering. Dogs are not humans, and it is our resposibility to know our dog's limits, and train and proof so an accident is less likely to occur.

There dogs working the street that have been taught to tolerate strangers and kids (and who never would have without training), and there are dogs working the streets that are social butterflies, that you can take to the local school and do a demo on dog safety and drugs, or whatever. Sport dogs and pet dogs should be held up to these same high standards.

But, it goes without saying, I would never trust a rank dog in a home with kids.

The bouv, the rott, and now this GSD have ALL displayed the "patience of Job" with kids. Rough house all you wanted. The lines that I have seen is when other kids hurt my kids, and even then it has never been more than a good "bump" in response. Now there are kids that I have told to "go home" because they were poorly disciplined little monsters that would not listen, and a few cases I told their parents to please keep them away.
My Bouv was probably the most aggressive by far.
By that I mean "sharp" , but he was probably child sensitive than the Rott in that if they cried, then he cried too and would work himself into a howl.

Kevin,
Sorry, but you're wrong on several levels here and you're attributing human reasoning to dogs, which is a common beginner's mistake.

Your quote "But a dog's job is to protect children, period" just shows that you lack an understanding of canine behavior. To ask for an unrealistic requirement out of an animal that is unable to perceive what you desire is, well, just silly.

There is no canine "instinct" to protect a kid that the dog doesn't know. A dog may or may not protect a family member, and if it does, that's due to pack behavior, which is hard-wired into a dog. But to expect a canine to protection a stranger, because it's a child? Sorry, not gonna happen.

Melissa points out that a dog can be taught and socialized about children, and she's correct. Your requirement that a dog must know this without training is unrealistic.

Several of my dogs are rank, I like them that way. I don't have children, I don't like children, and I don't require my dogs to tolerate children, as they'll never have contact with any. Ever.
And I've studied dog bites from many angles, both from doing Emergency Medicine for years in a big ER, from being a K9 Officer, and from being on Animal Control Boards. Many, not all, but many dog bites on children are contributed by the parents not having control of their children, either the child is out of sight, or their behavior ( running, yelling loudly ) evokes prey drive in a dog. And there's the ever popular "the child got too close to the food dish" bite that I hear about all the time. And *never* do I hear these parents take responsibility for not supervising their children and contributing to the bite.
Honestly, 50% of dog bites outright could be easily prevented by parents. This is not to say that many dog owners are not to blame for dog bites, we all see that's true in many cases. But a lot of times, the bite could have been prevented by responsibility from *either* side.

Please,oh please,tell me that I've totally misunderstood the gist of your post, Kevin.
By your reasoning there are only two contributing
factors to a child being attacked:
1)the kid's a brat and asking for it
2)the dog's vicious and should be put down

Look at the statistics-most wounds are inflicted by the family pet. I think you owe people an apology.

Ok, like I've plainly stated, and probably proven here, "I'm not a K9 Expert by ANY means" . I never stated to "put down" any dog, read the post please. I am just stating that I expect a dog to be able to see the obvious difference between BIG people and Little people, one poses no threat, one needs to be watched. As for the children, my 7 year old has a fairly good idea what prey drive is, after having explained to him enough to know that some movements are going to provoke a response from working dogs. I have 6 (SIX) children and have never had any of them bitten, but they all understand dogs, a couple of the older ones have explained the concept of drives to younger MWD handlers onbase. They all know that they are RESPONSIBLE for the things that they do, and they are accountable. All have been raised around dogs, and all have been raised around hunting and firearms. When you tell a child to NOT do something for the 3rd or 4th time inside of 10 minutes and little Jimmy isn't getting it, then it is time for little Jimmy or Sally to go home. At dogs I am an admitted amateur, after raising 6 kids I am NOT an amateur at parenting. Like I stated in the original post, I thought that it would provoke some discussion. If I was 1000% sure of my position I would not have bothered to even post it.

Oh and Will, thanks for the input, I'm learning. A common beginners mistake is ok, that is why I am on here, you people teach me alot. I have only the experience of a few dogs, and what I have observed onbase. I will say that the only MWD that I have seen that disliked children was a Mal that was nuts anyway. I have not approached Sch yet, but look forward to it as I enjoy learning new things with my dogs.

Also, I have been blessed with the means to be able to take my dogs almost everywhere with me, except work. Luke has gone everywhere with me since he came home with me, and when he is not with me then he is with my wife, that is ALOT of socialization. His nerves are pretty solid, he goes to the skeet range with me and the kids, fishing, loves boat rides, and jogs w/ me 2-4 times a weeks. Even goes to the grocery store w/ me most of the time. I always have a leash within reach, but he is rarely on it. Shotguns, firecrackers, etc., do not cause anything but maybe a glance. If he is exposed to a situation that he seems not too sure of he actually listens a little better when told to down/stay, probably because he trusts me.
My other dogs did basically the same w/ a few exceptions.

OK, I'll 'fess up. I have a dog that bit my son. On the back of the neck. Should he have been put down?

A little more info. After being told not to run in the house with the dog out, one day my son bolted out of the room. Poor impulse control <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , right? So the dog takes off after him, bites the back of the neck as my son was bending down to turn on the fan. No posturing no growling, a pure prey bite.

This is the dog that does the autosit and drools in front of kids, the lowest pack drive, least territorial, least dominant out of the bunch. He had a little too much prey drive, and no training (he was a shelter mutt). An almost perfect pet.

So, next dog. The sharpest one, a highly territorial, high pack drive female. Strongly suspicious of oh, everything. Borderline fear biter. She is my personal Secret Service, always reporting in to the President. One day I caught my son blowing in her face and ears and nose, three inches from her muzzle. She did not snap nor bite. Yet this is the same dog I had to train to tolerate the presence of strangers and strange kids. This is the dog that did not bite my son, but her temperment is far more unstable than the dog that did.

And yes, I did educate my son, long discussions, demos, looking at other dogs on the street and pointing out temperment. He was by no means ignorant about dogs, but he was a child. Just because he knows what prey drive, and territorial aggression are, in an abstract way, does not mean that he would know what to do in the event of an attack, or how to react based upon what primary drive the dog is in.

BTW, what military is decoying kids? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Welcome to the board! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oops, sorry Kevin, you didn't say 'put down', I did. Hard to remember all the info when you are drowning in snow!

No gloating, Will. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />