Hi Everyone,

Someone please, give me some advice --- tell me what you think - please.

I am Paige, Marc's wife. Had an incident tonight and I need to know if I handled this properly, if Marc & I have a dog that has issues ... or what. I am shaking as I type this. I really feel disappointed.

What happened:
I was watching t.v. in our bedroom, Blu (13-14 wk old Aussie) was out just playing with his toys in the floor. He kept jumping on the bed, pulling at the sheet, biting and pulling at the bedskirt etc. He would stop when I said no but, only for a moment. I kept saying no, he would jump up on my legs, bark and jump around. Showing teeth but, it seemed like he was just playing. He continued to bite at the bed, the sheets, bedskirt, me. Until, finally I had enough. I grabbed his scruf with a firm no. He stopped but then started the jumping around barking at me, showing teeth. Then started biting again, I grabbed scruf again, he let go, did it again, I grapped scruf AGAIN --- this time while my one hand was on his neck the other was on the floor near his mouth - he grapped hold of my hand and BIT me, hard. I'm bleeding. I grapped his scruf harder and said "NO", pulled my hand out and picked his ass up to put him in the crate. When I picked him up he was growling, barking, showing teeth - coming at me as if he wanted to take my face off. I've never seen anything like it. When I got the crate door closed - he was still growling, he wanted to come thru the door to get to me. I closed the door and walked out. About this time Marc comes home I tell him what happened, as I'm standing in the kitchen washing my wounds. I thought he was going to the bedroom to change - but he went in to see if he was still growling and let him out of the crate. When I went in and saw he was out of the crate - I told MArc I didn't want him out the rest of the night. I picked him back up and put him back in - turned the light off and closed the door. He didn't try to bite me this time.

As Marc has posted, this puppy is hard-headed. Usually, grapping the scruff has little effect, or is very temporary. Could I have grapped him so hard he feared me? I didn't use any more force than normal. That is until I was bit. At this point, I don't want to feed him tonight, no cream cheese kong - nothing. What should I do?

Thanks in advance.
Paige

Paige,
I'm sorry you got bitten.
Your dog is not ruined from this experience, nor does it really tell what he's going to be like in the future. He is young and the situation could have been completely misunderstanding to him. He resorted to what he thought was best. He was probably scared as well as confused, causing him to bite.

After you got bit, you handled the situation well by putting him up in his crate. Isolation was the best thing for him at the time. Continuing it through the entire night probably won't be associated with the bite incident in his mind, but I know it would probably make you feel better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The next time he is being obnoxious, I would take him to his crate for a 5 min. time out before resorting to a scruff shake. It will give him time to calm down and give you time to release your frustration. In my opinion, chewing on the sheets and playing rough is not a good enough reason to use a scruff shake, which might have been the reason for the bite. This was probably an one-time incident, but if he shows anymore aggression I would seek a personal trainer who can help you in your home and work with your dog one on one.

Alison Voore

I disagree completely. I say it does tell a whole lot about what this dog will be like. A dog putting its mouth on you or its teeth on you is one thing but for a dog that young to bite down hard enough to break skin and cause you to bleed because it doesnt like a correction is not good at all. If it had been me the whole world would of crashed on that pup. I say you have alot of work cut out for you and if that dog is suppose to be a family dog I think you got the wrong pup. I wasnt there so I didnt actually see what happened but if it actually bit the crap out of you hard, making you bleed because it was mad at you for the correction then I dont think it looks good.Not for a social type family dog anyway.

Your pup was a rescue, correct? So his past is different from a regular puppy from a breeder. I'd say then that he has a reason for reacting as he did--he felt pain, and a pup that has gone through anything other than love and care WILL probably react that way. Don't worry too much, but make sure you always give this pup the idea that YOU are the boss, and not him.

Have you fixed the issues with his food guarding yet? This is an important thing to remember.

He got hurt, so he reacted in the only way he knew how. I've had a dog I picked up at a dump at 2 months old, and she reacted exactly the same way the first time I corrected her. Yes, she drew blood as well. I beat the crap out of her. (Not really, but I shook her and pinned her over and over and then left her and ignored her). She also had the same food guarding issues that I remember your pup had, and I made sure she knew where the food was coming from, that I could take it away anytime I wanted to, that I was the boss and that if you ever dare show your teeth to me you're going to get hurt.

Six months later, she became the most loving pup I've ever known. Would literally crawl into anyone's lap and love them. Would accept anything I did to her and never bit me again, save for a gentle mouthing which I haven't stopped her from doing yet. (I actually pulled TEETH out of this dog without problem). Everyone loved her. I didn't have trouble finding her a home when I finally had to come back to Canada and leave her behind. I still miss her and want to take her here when I get the money.

So, you have to understand his background, and be firm yet gentle with him. It's a whole different thing from having a pup who had only known love, and turned like this. He's been through a lot.

David,

I would think that this incident might foretell some problems if the pup was older, but as a 13-14 wk old puppy, "dominant" or "aggressive" is a hard call to make. Considering if her corrections using the scruff shake were hard or soft, it could have just instigated the puppy to play more aggressively and become confused at why he was continuing to be punished. Often a physical correction when a pup is play biting or chewing causes them to be even more rough and physical themselves. Obviously, it was not a firm enough correction because the dog repeated what it was scolded for more vigorously after each scruff shake. I see that as a puppy thinking it was all part of the game rather than a punishment. Could it not be that the pup was confused and bit and growled out of fear during a correction or because of rough play? It would also be quite easy for a pup at this age to break skin and cause bleeding. Puppy teeth are extremely sharp.

I also agree with what Kay said. The pup is a rescue and may have been played with quiet roughly in the past by previous owners. I wouldn't give up hope on this puppy just becuase of one incident that is so vague. Who hasn't had an incident similar to this with their dogs as puppies? Whether it's food guarding, rough play, or fear biting, etc... I think things like this pop up in the majority of puppies development. It's how the owner learns & deals with the issue if it's in the future that will make or break the pup.

Alison Voore

She said the pup bit her hard, drawing blood, and when she got her hand back it continued to growl and show its teeth. She went on to say it wanted to take her face off and she had never seen anything like it. Previouse post about this pup talks about food agression and other post talk about it being a very mouthy puppy. I disagree with your response that this doesnt have anything to do with the way this dog will turn out when its older. I say it has alot to do with how this pup will turn out whe its older. Why was this pup in the pound to start with? I dont know. Did I read somewhere this pup survived parvo, I dont remember now. If so, this pup may not be quite right in the head. I see alot of bad signs in this pup for the reasons they want a dog. They could take it back and rescue another pup that fit them better or they could keep it, thats up to them. But I for see trouble whith this pup when it gets older, I for see it being a liability or a big hassle making sure it doesnt bite somebody.Maybe not I could be wrong but I think the way it is behaving at this age does tell alot about the type of dog it will grow into.

This is a 13-14 week old puppy?

Hey everyone, this is Marc...my wife is asleep now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, this is a 13-14 week old pup. We rescued him from the pound and he had mange and survived parvo. We didn't know he had parvo until a week or so after we picked him up. My wife couldn't put him down so we spent the $300-$400 to see if he would survived (IV's, etc).

I do wonder if this pup is not right in the head. He is VERY strong willed and does not respond to the scruff shaking, it only makes him come harder. He will cry, like it hurts but then as soon as we let go, he comes right back at us. I also noticed that when we play with him, he goes for our hands alot instead of the toy.

At this point we don't know what to do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We do love him but we also have 2 cats and if anything happened to them we would never forgive ourselves. Please keep the post coming, we need the opinions!

I'm sure Paige (my wife) will post when she gets up. She can go into more detail as to what happened...

Hi Everyone and Thanks for the responses.

I ended up getting him out of the crate after 10-15 minutes. He was really sweet, I could tell though that he was a little reserved. I fed him, played with him a few minutes and we went to bed for the night. I think I over did it, I think your absolutely right, Alison. Chewing and pulling on the sheets (etc) wasn't a good enough reason for my reaction. I do believe now, that he was confused and scared with my actions. I was wrong.

It does, however, concern me that this is an aggressive dog, Marc and I just don't know...we have nothing to judge it by. We have no previous dog experience, we've not seen how another puppy acts when relaxed, comfortable and playing in it's own invironment. We are trying to do things right so that he is a part of our "family". I think we may be too serious with him at this point, I'm just not sure. We've watched Ed's videos, we've read (just about) every article on the site and I think we may be on information overload. If that makes any sense, I feel like we just need to relax.

Blu (the puppy) is growing so FAST! When we brought him home from the vet, after spending 6 days on IV, with no food. He weighed around 8 pounds. After only 3 wks, he weighs 17+ pounds. He seems very happy, he doesn't show aggression toward others, or other dogs. He did play a little rough with my brother's jack russell after several hours but, never hurt him. He does still bark at the cats on occasion. One moment he will look at one of them and walk right by, the next he trys to pounce on them and then starts barking. We're trying to stop the barking by either standing in front of him so that he gets distracted or picking him up. He will sit in the living room with us, while the cats are on the sofa sitting with me and just look at them. But, if one of them gets up and starts to walk away, he wants to go after them so bad, he can't sit still.

He does 'try us". It's like a child. When we say "no" to something... say biting our hands. He KNOWS without question, in my opinion, that he did something wrong. He will then bark, back up, pounce at us and nip again. He will repeat this a couple times and we continue to say "no". Then he moves on. When this happens the first time, should he be put in the crate?

I'm sure I'll have more questions for you guys as we move forward. We need the advice.

Thanks again!
Paige

One more thing ...
When we get him out of the crate, he (usually) immediately bites our pants legs, or or shirt sleeve and holds on. When I try to pull away he'll growl. I'll grab his mouth on each side and say "no", he'll then let go. My question is: is this behavior normal? For him to bite whatever he can get to when he comes out of the crate and then growl (as if in a tug game) when we try to get free from him.