Ok.. being the contemplative sort that I am and reading this board a lot lately if synthesized a sort of cognitive dissonance in regards to Schutzhund.. Before I posit and question for debate I want to assert that I’m very much a novice and very much interested in seeking more experienced folks perceptions and knowledge rather any gainful insight on personal feelings.

Among certain themes I’ve seen on the board lately

1) Dog sport doesn’t replicate/test true PPD work
2) People have been inventing other sports to test breed worthiness (ASR)
3) SchH champs are rarely good studs, suggesting that breed worthiness and schutzhund might have conflict.
4) People have been talking about breeding in Mal lines to increase drives
5) Some feel that the GSD breed will simply not survive the next hundred year (personally I’m clueless as to the basis of this, largely due to not understanding bloodlines and breeding genetics)


I’m just starting in Schutzhund. In fact, I’m walking around the gates of a local club sans a dog at this point waiting to get accepted as a member. However, these sort of things I’ve been hearing on this board just beg the question – does Schutzhund help the breed as Stephanitz intended it? Or perhaps his sport wasn’t the proper way to perpetuate the working capabilities of the GSD?

I think these my statement evokes two prongs I’m curious about:
a) Are the human failings of properly following the systematic intentions of SchH the reason that may no longer be a test of breed worthiness?
b) Are there intrinsic fallibilities to SchH irregardless of human implementation?

I think that schutzhund represents a standard for the world to use in assesment of a dog. When you really get into the meat of it you need to look at who the handlers, trainers, judges and helpers are. A lot of varaibles come from those 4 participants There are pleanty of crap dogs in any sport: ring, asr, schutzhund...ETC. There are also some nice dogs. I think crossing Malinois is not going to do the GSD any good. They have that and it is a dutch shepherd. Let the Malinois people do the malinois thing and GSD peopole to do the GSD thing. There are a bunch of very nice GSD with lots of drive and don't need to be "fixed". The problem in the breed is a lot of mis-informed breeders flooding the market with dogs that were not breed right. Breeding is an art and it takes time and experience to understnad what your making. You just can't breed a sch III to a SCH III and expect awesome puppies. A good breeder needs to understand thresholds, drives, nerves, hardness/softness levels and character in the dogs just to mention a few things. There are some really nice schutzhund champion dogs that produce well and there are some that don't. Again, the ones that win do not always win because they are the best, helpers, judges and handlers sometimes have a lot to play in who get 1st place. I'm not saying the sport is corrupt, but just like anything politics can be a factor. Again, this is not something I think always happens or is the truth, but it is possible it could have been a factor in certain competitions. I think it takess a great deal of dedication to be involved at a serious level in dog breeding and training. For the average person they are not up for it. Therefore stop or do not train.
The GSD will be around for as long as any other breed. They are not going to die out in 100 years. That is nuts. Humans are great at making errors, hence, with tdogs and sport or breeding your going to have a lot of people who think they know it all, or are the best. This ego sh*t is what is messing up the sport. People not training and working together is the problem. To many clubs and breeders isolate themselves from everyone, and have to messed up egos to get out and work together. That is the problem.

My problem with shutzhund stems from the dumbing down of the temperament test. I don't care that it is a sport, don't make it weaker. They did that. It also was a test for the GSD so other breeds are supposed to conform to that standard. The judging got a little goofy for me as well. I saw so many "pronounced" dogs after a while it was silly. If your dog bit and held on it was pronounced. Thats my opinion on the sport side of it. I like to train dogs and maybe in another 50 years I will be good at it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think that as far as the winners being good stud dogs, well no I don't think that is so. The whole point was that it is a temperament test to see who is who, not who puts in the best performance. Other sports for breed worthiness. well the malinois is not going to do well as a breed if shutzhund is the test for breed worthiness. Sorry it is not their deal. ASR is something that I don't know about. I do mondio with my dog and hopefully french ring later. However I have a good deal of respect for our beloved moderator Will R. and he seems satisfied with it. I don't know what is going on tomorow so in a hundred years??????? I think that humans decide the fate of things, so there will be show dogs and working dogs always in the GSD breed.
I think that you find fun people to train with and do your thing. What your "thing" is might change from shutzhund, but maybe it won't. Either way I hope you get in there and do it.

As Stephanitz intended it? Personally, I don't think so. The GSD was created as a versatile working breed. "Work" back then meant just that - they had a job (or many jobs) to do. Real jobs. Where people's lives and livelyhood may have depended on them. Schutzhund was intended as a showcase intially for the breed's capabilities as a whole, and then for the individual dogs as well.

Schutzhund today is purely a sport. Meaning, that no matter how much people involved claim they are into "working dogs", in order to succeed in Schutzhund, they need "sport" dogs.

In my opinion, the dogs that come closest to what the original GSD was like are probably not going to be on the podium at any major events. The overall stability, trainability, and character traits of the original breed may not translate into the flashy performance desired today. That's because the dogs that score high at big events are often operating on the edge of control - resulting in very intense, enthusiastic, "spirited" performances. On the other hand, some of them even go over that line, losing points in the process. Those are the dogs that are often considered good for breeding due to their intense drives, and the reason why it's said that sometimes the top competitors aren't the best producers.

But in the end, Schutzhund has become purely sport. Show for points. Breed for intense drives. In my opinion, the thought of adding Mals for drive to GSD lines is in the interest of creating better Schutzhund GSD's, not necessarily better GSD's.

BUT - since i doubt if very many of us truly have a need for a dog in the capacity the GSD was originally intended, sport is what we have.

And if nothing else, it's a helluva lot better than the alternative.

*My post is focused primarily on the sport side of this topic. I know that most true 'working' dogs (PSD, PPD) don't feel compelled to "prove it" to anyone, and many, as often mentioned here, are not even papered because in those communities a dog that does the work is a dog that does the work, period. And that's good in my opinion. And a whole other topic that I admittedly am not qualified to partake in.

Dogs evolve as a breed as the world evolves.
As I look out my back window, I notice a complete and total lack of any sheep in my yard. I'm willing to bet it's the same for virtually everyone. So the need for a dog that actually shepherds is diminished.

However.....the amount of crime and number of dangerous people in the world has multiple many times over since the origin of the GSD - hence the use of the dog as a deterrent against criminals has greatly increased, which also has pushed the evolution of the breed.

1) Dog sport doesn’t replicate/test true PPD work
Look at a ringsport like Belgian ring and besides the aspect off crowdcontrol i think that every aspect for true ppd work is trained.
2) People have been inventing other sports to test breed worthiness (ASR)
There have been other dogtraining programmes available for almost a century (Belgian Ring since 1912 if i'm not mistaken) and numerous policeforces have looked for inspiration there eg 1968 Commander Gendarmery Hasselt (Belgium) at the NVBK clib in Kuringen
3) SchH champs are rarely good studs, suggesting that breed worthiness and schutzhund might have conflict.
A champion is the result of dog/trainer/trail and luck. Looking for a breeding stud is looking at the dog without the 3 other criteria. unfortunatly people like to see the ribons
4) People have been talking about breeding in Mal lines to increase drives
I think that is a short term sollution, you need more rigorous testing to keep the obtained result in time
5) Some feel that the GSD breed will simply not survive the next hundred year (personally I’m clueless as to the basis of this, largely due to not understanding bloodlines and breeding genetics)
There will always be GSD's but will they survive as a working breed is another question. Personaly i'm convinced that if the selection for a realy hard sport isn't introduced it will go downhill with the GSD. schz isn't selectif enough a welltrained average dog can get scores near perfect.

Greetings


Johan

I started into SchutzHund for my benefit not so much the dog. Did I miss something? I thought it was about the dog and handler team. Some one on this board refered to Sch as "Doggy High School" to imply that the dog is not finished all its training. just my newbie 2 cents worth

Perhaps the question should be:

"Is Schutzhund, when applied/judged as originally intended by v. Stephanitz, still sufficient as a Breed Evaluation Test for the working German Shepherd Dog?"

Or has it become so "sport" oriented that its use as a true Breed Evaluation tool is now basically insufficient in measuring the qualities needed for a superior working dog?(Assuming that it ever was sufficient enough)

If so, I'd be interested in hearing which test people think comes closest to meeting the Breed Evaluation goal and could or should replace Schutzhund as a tool for evaluating Breed Worthiness of a particular dog (KNPV, Ring, ASR, etc).

Or should something entirely new be created?

As a temperament test it is fine. If you look at what people want, this is where it gets goofy. most new people want a dog that can do the work. I always read that as "barely" the better trainers want a dog that will win. A few nut jobs like me (in the past) liked to work really strong dogs. when you look at this from a breeding standpoint, along with inflated evaluations of what someone thinks a dog is, this is a nightmare. Myself and lets say ten other breeders want godzilla. Twentyfive hundred want podium dogs, and thirteen thousand want dogs to just do the work. Here is where we cannot get it right. Most people either won't or are unable to deal with the monsters 11 people produce. Monsters create podium dogs, podium dogs create "just do the work" dogs. So right there we have crap in a handbag. The sport created the need for the podium, and a disdain for the dogs to strong to work. The test said this will win, this is for breeding, throw this away, don't ever let it darken my doorstep again. ect ect. Of course what I really wqanted to say that everyone should be in ringsport <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Have I mentioned my evil plan for world domination???? Funny thing, one of the ladies I train with saw that and mentioned that if I succeded all the yucky shutzhund people will join ring and it will be a mess. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I never thought about that. Hmmmmmm well maybe I should come up with evil plan "B" MUHAHAHAHA........MUHAHAHAHA <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Great discussion. Her's my 2 cents.

In a basic, raw sense, schutzhund can be a completely viable tool for breed evaluation. The problem arises when sport and/or money aspect of SchH begins to override its fundamental values. Below are a few things that can hinder any breeding evaluation program and are apparent in, but not exclusive to, SchH:


1. Equating Points/Scores/Titles with drive, temperament, aggression & production.
2. Relaxing the requirements to attract participation.
3. General focus on competition prep training and less on evaluation.
4. General lack of understanding of drives, aggression, temperament and weak/unclear/misguided breeding goals.
5. Widespread lack of responsibility/desire amongst general public to own a working dog with a ‘true to form’ temperament & drives, but at the same time wanting to own that same breed based on its looks, history, image, etc; then perpetuating this through breeding.

Scott asked: ‘Or should something entirely new be created?’

Possibly, but I feel its basically trying to re-invent the wheel. We have SchH, FR, BR, MR, Campagne, IPO, IWR, KNPV, ZVV/SVV, and have more recently added ASR, PSA, NAPD, K9 Pro Sports, etc, etc…How many dogsports do we really need? Why not focus on keeping the existing, time-tested ones viable? I venture to say that most of us have a hard enough time really grasping the fundamental principals of these established programs, and how these principals relate to breeding/evaluation/training/competition…without trying to go out and invent something ‘new and improved’.
I tend to believe we should be looking to revive/use some of the tools that have been used in the past...hindsight can be 20/20. The old DDR Korung/Breed Survey for example – a dog could not get its lifetime rating until it had a certain number of progeny titled & surveyed, additionally not every dog that simply bit the sleeve would get a ‘pronounced’ rating.
Along this same line, I also agree with Kevin Shedahl who has written numerous times on this board about a breed survey system similar to the DMC Korung. In this country maybe it could be administered by the AWDF so all working breeds could participate with as few ‘club politics’ as possible.
The reality is, if people want to breed crap dogs, there isn’t much you’re going to do to stop them. Conversely, for people striving to breed (GSDs) under current USA/SV breeding regulations it is nearly prohibitive to meet all of the breeding requirements. Even then, are they meeting their breeding goals or the demands of the work? If they were, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. As for many other breeds, the opposite is happening-breeding is largely unregulated.
Ideally, this system could afford serious breeders the opportunity to keep pace with and overtake BYBs and have some measure of a standardized objective evaluation without jumping through 30 hoops to please a breed club which may have lost some of its vision.