OK, he's been fine up to this point. I started working with him once he had hit 6mo as he was on the virge of being traded back to the breeder for another one due to health problems.

The health probs cleared up and at 6mo started working him.

He again learned fast and is fine.

But he has figured out option B and at this point is 12mo old.

On the leash with the pinch collar he'll work fine. Sit, downs, stays, outs, etc. But THE SECOND I take off the leash, he's roaming off and doesn't listen anymore. This is the second time he has done this. If I am way out in a field, he's ok and will folow me around. But in the neighborhood, etc, he's gone and I used to be able to walk away and he'd rush to follow.

I know if I chase him he's only going to run fuirther and faster away. So I hid behind this wal;l; and watched. He could care less about me. He kept walking further and further away. Once I kept coming closer, all the while calling him to come, and he keeps on going.


So now at this point, I have NOT let him free for ANYTHING. I feel he has lost a repect for the leash and feels that once on, he's fine, once off, he ignores. I can't tolerate that.

The next thing is once he FIIIINALLY comes when told and I put the pinch collar on he snaps at me and if I get it on by that point will have those prongs get intimate with his neck and correct him for doing so.

He gives it up but is really iffy. LIke he won't snap anymore but sort of flinchy. Not afraid of hands or whatnot but if I move my hands near where the pinch collar is he'll flinch towards where my hands are. Almost like he wants to snap but won't b/c I'll get into his rear end again and correct him.


So tell me where to go at this point. I take him out with the 20ft leash but that is as long as he gets unless I go to the 10acre field which was going everyday but I ran him a little on the hard side so gave him 3 days break and the heat has been pretty bad. I take himin the evenings about 8pm but its still 88 or more degrees.

So what can you give to me. I hate this. He was FINE but then after he hit about the age he is now he started to get beligerant. But I can fix that. Whatever advice you give, we can work with that. I feel that anything is possible (in general, aahhaha <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I just need to be let aware of what needs to be done. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

E-collar is the easiest way I know to regain control

I had this problem when I used compulsion on a smart/strong/independant type dog. One of the reasons I use food now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I would start rewarding with food. when you put the pinch on give him food. When you are out on the line every time he comes to see you, food. The nice thing about this is you can explain to the little knothead who is in charge without useing force to do so. When he doesn't get to eat and you are the only source you become very important. Otherwise you end up chasing the dog all over heck and back like you just did, and I did many times. I was a lot faster back then and could actually catch them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Now I am too heavy and the knees protest strongly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If he figured out the pinch, my bet is he will figure out the E-collar. Hope it helps.

QUOTE: So now at this point, I have NOT let him free for ANYTHING. I feel he has lost a repect for the leash and feels that once on, he's fine, once off, he ignores. END

First, let me say that I'm experienced with general obedience/behavior training but just starting to learn PPD training. So, given that, maybe my observations are not relevant and you want PPD experts to weigh in.......

That said, does he ever have the leash on with the regular collar? I mean, does he associate the leash 100% with the pinch or e-collar? Also, for general obedience (heel, come, stay, etc.), does he give the wanted behavior in response to your voice alone, or maybe your voice with attention-jerks on the leash (with the regular collar)? You mentioned health problems that cleared up recently. Did the health problems keep him from being trained in general obedience -- I mean with just the leash and the leather collar? Or was the prong collar his first training tool?

In the house or on your own property, does he respond to your commands off-lead? Is it only out in the neighborhood/fields that the submission falters?

QUOTE: One of the reasons I use food now END

Me too! LOL! Reward reward reward is my motto. I carry tiny little "training treats" (because they don't turn my pockets into little garbage pails) and for the first days, weeks, and even months, I pop them out like Pez dispensers every time the dog comes when called. I still do it every now and then, even with a very well-trained dog. Why not? (Of course, at that rate you want to make sure they're food-quality rather than treat-quality, and that you're figuring them in when you're formulating his diet............)

Rewarding is my first line. If it's something complicated, sometimes you just have to wait until he does the wanted behavior accidentally, and then reward reward reward. He'll get it! Just IMHO!

The glory of the e-collar is that it does not matter if he figures it out!!

Although if he responds to reward rather than compulsion great but don't underestimate the value of the e-collar.

A very common problem!
By changing the way in which you handle the collar and leash, you can eliminate it. (I had the same problem with Abby, I didn't believe it would work, but I tried it, and within minutes, I had offleash, sit,down, stays, and heeling) This may be a little too Koehler-ish for some people, but I find it effective and positive.

If the dog cannot feel its collar and leash, and you do not communicate verbally to it, it has a choice to recieve correction or be visually attentive. When the dog becomes attentive, use praise and basic obedience to maintain the attention and create a calm positive experience. Since the dog can't feel that leash anyway, you'll be able to drop it and work up to offleash work in a matter of minutes, with you in control and a positive experience for both you and your dog.

The idea is to make sure the dog doesn't know if it has a collar/leash on or not. I use the smallest prong collar possible (not the mini or mini-micro though) with a dark colored cat leash. I assume you know how to fit the prong collar correctly according to Ed Frawley's article. Always keep slack in the leash. The leash should loop below the dog's head at all time (except when giving a correction) and must immediately return to slack after the correction.

Without giving any sort of verbal cue to your dog, walk boldly to a predetermined point, stop, pause, then walk boldly back to where you started. If your dog is not watching, it will hit the end of the leash and recieve a "passive" correction.

Repeat this sequence until your dog starts and stops walking with you, without hitting the end of the leash.

Now that you have the dog's attention, ask it to sit. Praise! Walk around the dog, continually praising, handling the leash so that it falls behind the dog's head when you walk in front of the dog. If the dog gets up, verbally correct it "no" ask it to sit and praise. As long as the dog sits, it recieves praise. Repeat walking around the dog until it says sitting as you walk around it.

Walk around the dog again, this time drop the leash behind the dog. The dog has not seen you drop the leash, cannot feel the leash because you have kept the slack in it, and cannot feel the weight of the collar, so it has no way to know that it is off leash. Praise the dog for sitting and staying seated and congradulate yourself!

You can ease to offleash work by walking away from the dog a short distance 2- 4 feet (so that you can physically stop any misbehavior and maintain control of the training session) and call the dog to come. You have a very elementary sit stay.

I am sure that you can work from there.

I was ammazed at the change this created in my dog. After a year of consistent work, we were lucky to get a sit stay offleash from a distance of 10 feet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> After one session, I had her on 100 ft sit stay at the dog park and 200 ft sitstay in my yard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (Yes, I did measure!)

Good Luck!

Here's another easy solution. Practice putting the collar on randomly - ie: not just for training. Put the collar on and give him a treat, then go about your business for a while and then take it off. Do the same with the leash - periodically hook the leash to the collar (his regular collar) and let him drag it around for a while, then take it off. ALWAYS under supervision, of course. This way, he will stop associating the act of you putting on the collar and leash with training and being corrected. It will mean nothing to him.

At this point, from the way you describe his behavior, it sounds as if he views the collar and leash as a bad thing. I think you need to step back a bit and try the food/reward based training that was mentioned, just for a while, until he's looking forward to training sessions. You can still let him wear the prong, but don't use it again until he's enjoying himself. I think too you might be giving too hard a correction for him. That might be something you want to work on as well - he shouldn't flinch when you reach for him. I almost never use the prong on my dog anymore, but it is kept in a drawer in the kitchen. If I'm rustling around in that drawer for something and she hears the prong collar jingle, she comes running; tail wagging, hopping up and down with her front feet, sitting and then jumping up and spinning in a circle and then sitting again, all excited because she thinks we're going to go train! LoL She views the prong collar as a positive thing because I made training sessions fun and she enjoyed it. Yes, she got corrected when she made a mistake, but overall the training sessions were positive, so she looked forward to them rather than dreading them - and this is a chow/pit mix!

Don't let him have free time until you get the come command down pat, or teach him to stay close to you, and NEVER issue a command like come if you cannot enforce it (ie: if he's off leash and not coming). That will do nothing but teach him to ignore you.

Kristen - that is also excellent advice. If the dog is fearful of or upset with the prong collar itself - it's goint to be very difficult to get the dog into a positive state of mind to start, and would presumeably be more difficult to keep the dog in a positive state of mind during the training session.

I overlooked that the dog may already view the collar negatively. Thank you for filling in that part!

Most of my life I have been able to train a dog without ever using an e-collar. I always used it to fix behavioral problems. I also over the years find that other than bird dog people, most people that use the e-collar are a bit lazy and don't go thru all the necessary steps in training and are looking for a short cut. Not all, but in my experience most. I couldn't have a e-collar on my dog all the time, it would embarass me to death. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I think that if you made the mistake of teaching the dog that off leash means I don't have to listen, you were heavy handed and over corrected. So that is why I would say that an e-collar is not the way to go. That is why I would recommend reward based training for the over enthusiastic correction person. I was one, I know the symptoms <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />