hello, everyone. i am new to the forum, and honored to be here. i've read some fantastic dog handling advice here in the past few days, and i'm hopeful for some good help with my own situation.

i've read the articles and Q&A on the leerburg website and they have been very helpful. however, i am still confused about what i am dealing with in my own dog. perhaps i have "kennel blindness."

ed writes that a dog cannot be both dominant and fearful, but my dog exhibits both behaviors, i think. it is making me confused about how to handle him from here on out.

ben is a three year old intact male english mastiff. he comes from a line of working dogs who were bred for carting, weight pulling, schutzhund, and competitive obedience.

my understanding of what a "working dog" means, at the time i bought ben, was very different than it is now that i've read the leerburg website! in retrospect, i don't think i would have gone for working lines, because ben has a very strong drive that is more than is needed for what we do, which is extended backpacking trips where he carries a pack at high elevations. of course, most mastiffs can't do this sort of thing because they aren't sound enough, so i am very pleased about his physical soundness for the job. he is a terrific trail dog, and i had been trying to find one for years.

anyway, i don't want to make this too long.

ben arrived here by air as a 12 week old puppy. he bounded out of that crate after 12 hours of flying, when it was over 100 degrees out, ready to play, full of spunk and zaniness and confidence. he remained a confident, happy, outgoing, if hard-headed pup for the first 8 or 9 months of his life. he was taken everywhere, socialized endlessly, and even got his cgc certificate at 6 months old, no problem!

he was great with other dogs. LOVES other dogs. is, unfortunately, too "doggie" as ed says, but unfortunately that is how this breeder raises her puppies. her mastiffs all live as part of a huge pack in her house and yard (mastiffs are generally able to do this very peaceably, btw.) he displays dominance behavior with other dogs, but is very friendly, and things have only gotten tense if the other dog wants to challenge him.

(please do not be too hard on me--i wish i had read this web site before i got my pup, but i did not, and my previous experience with dogs has always been with dogs that are not nearly as sensitive or high-powered as ben--in other words, i always had "easy" dogs before.)

ben was attacked by other dogs three times during his first two years of life. amazingly, he shows no dog aggression, and has continued to be friendly, outgoing, and confident with other dogs, unless there is a dominance issue between them.

of course it was my fault! i had no idea you were not supposed to take a puppy out where these things could happen! in all three cases, the attacks came seemingly out of nowhere: once the golden retriever standing right next to him in puppy class slashed his face with no warning or provocation. ben didn't even react, and showed no signs of fear at the next class. another time we were hiking in the woods and two grown great danes who were jogging with their owner appeared out of nowhere and chased ben down like prey. i ran screaming in between them and chased them off. two minutes later, a third great dane showed up, a piebald just like the bad ones, and ben ran right up to it with his tail wagging, wanting to play! the third time he was playing with some other dogs in a park and a coonhound who was not part of the play group rushed in out of nowhere and slashed his face.

after that, i quit taking him any place where he might encounter uncontrolled dogs. (yes, call me dense! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

but i think this illustrates that ben is pretty "hard." i was teaching him to heel using the "sneak away" technique, and no matter how many times i corrected him, he'd rush out ahead of me again! he never takes corrections personally, nor did those attacks seem to bother him at all!

the first sign of trouble was at about 8 or 9 mos. when i had a group of friends come over to the house for a meeting. he'd known these women all his life. they all cooed at him and entreated him and he slunk away with his tail between his legs! after a while he crawled up to me and hid behind me, so they couldn't interact with him.

of course i called the breeder right away. she said tell visitors to completely ignore him and let him come to them, and don't try to make eye contact with him. suddenly, he hates eye contact from strangers!

what happened at about this same time was that our older dog was diagnosed with a congenital spinal defect, and was under vet's orders to not go on long walks any more. ben's primary bond was with this older dog, and for the first time, tucker was not going hiking with us, and ben was going places just with me. my hypothesis is that somehow this caused him to become fearful, because he didn't look to me as his pack leader, and i was the only one there for protection, which i had failed at.

the odd thing is, the traumas came from encounters with dogs when tucker wasn't there. but ben's fear is of people at our house, when tucker WAS there.

anyway, his behavior escalated to the point of "air snapping" at a young woman who loves dogs and who was helping me in the garden, and i sought out the help of local "dog whisperer" who explained to me that ben didn't trust me to take care of him. she had me use dominance touches and lots of reassuring vocalization to teach ben to trust me as his leader. she also had me tie him to me for a week with a leash so he couldn't do anything without my OK. but ben didn't improve until my husband got involved and started doing the touches and vocalizing, too.

now i can say i'm fairly confident of him. when some relatives showed up this summer, he ran up to them with his tail wagging, looking for pets. but he is unpredictable. other people have come to visit and he's back to shying away and barking. no more lunging or snapping though. he will let strangers pet him, even when he clearly doesn't like it (has tail between his legs, sometimes even trembles). his bite inhibition, i think, is very very strong.

he is totally sweet with us. i've practiced NILIF with him from day one, because it was clear he was a hard pup. he's not allowed on the furniture or the bed. he's not allowed to be pushy. i can take anything out of his mouth. when i approach he rolls over and shows his belly, so he is submissive with us.

but sometimes when we're out walking on a leash, a person or a dog he doesn't like the looks of will set him off and he will go wild, and it's only because i use a prong and pay attention to who or what is coming down the street that there hasn't been a disaster. it doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it is scary. he's a huge dog, and the sight of him lunging and snarling is terrifying to everyone. i am always careful to keep the leash slack. i move him away from oncoming people and/or dogs, out into a "comfort zone," but with some people or dogs he goes ballistic anyway.

he does have a good foundation in obedience. one little "uh-uh" from me and i've got his full attention and compliance. except, of course, when he gets triggered in the way i describe. i have no idea why some people or dogs and not others. this only happens when he is on leash. once such an incident happens, then he is triggered and keeps reacting like this over and over again.

sorry this is so long! but i'm trying to give enough information to find out the answers to the following:

1. is my dog dominant or fearful--or somehow both?

2. do you think this is his breeding, inherited, or did i create this situation?

he has never been treated badly, ever, by a human, and his usual attitude to people other than his family is utter indifference. but some people do trigger him--only out on walks, never at home. and some people visiting at the house he cuddles up with after he gets used to them, especially if they ignore him!

he will not accept anyone looking him in the eyes except us. he will either turn away or get into a dominant stance, depending on the person or dog.

i do plan to get ed's basic obedience video. also, our older dog died this summer, and i'm looking at this as an opportunity to forge a primary bond with ben. i've been doing the leash attached in the house thing again, and we are together pretty much 24/7.

so, last question,

3. can a dog that has become "doggie" through primary socialization with other dogs, become primarily bonded with his owner later on? if so, what is the most effective way to accomplish this? (i will never own two dogs at the same time again! or get a 12 week old pup again.)

i think ben has shown enough improvement, and i've been enough of a quick study, that i'm no longer worried about him being a danger. he lets the mailman come in the yard to deliver mail and ignores him. he's great with children (we don't have any any more, but in the vet's waiting or at a dog show, he'll go up to a small child and put his head in their lap and let them pull his ears.) plus, i now understand that he doesn't have to interact with other people or dogs, and will protect him.

all and any advice, comments, suggestions, gratefully accepted! (have donned flame suit! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

ok, people, i know that was long. i'll try to condense it here and hope someone will step up to the plate.

my dog is confident and friendly-dominant with other dogs, despite having been attacked by other dogs as a puppy. he is submissive with us and was submissive to the older dog we had.

he is fearful in human-crowded situations or in situations where strangers come to the house. so, only fearful of people he doesn't know when he feels confined. out in the open, when we're hiking in a national forest or recreation area, he is friendly and confident with both people and dogs. and he has always been gentle with children, despite not having been raised with them.

in general, when he's not at home, his attitude towards strangers is indifference.

do i have a confident dog or a fearful dog? is my dog dominant or submissive?

is it possible for this to be just situational? and what does that tell me about his breeding? was he born this way or is it something i created?

he is tightly linebred from a rare strain of working mastiffs, by a respected breeder with 25 years worth of experience. we all know that even the best breeding can produce an unsound temperament; i just want to know how his behavior seems to others.

does the fact that he was initially raised in a mastiff pack until he was 12 weeks old mean that he will always be more confident with dogs than with people? he was socialized heavily with people throughout his puppyhood, after we got him.

finally, if you do read the above post, what advice do you have for me about managing him and his encounters with others? when we walk him in the city on a slack leash, where he has closer encounters with people and dogs, he sometimes, unpredictably, pops off and goes wild trying to attack them (he's on a prong collar). i have no idea what triggers him.

I'm not an expert but there was just another post about a mastiff and one of the mods who is very dog savvy had this comment. If I were you, I would bring him to an experienced behaviorist.

Just my two cents, but from my experience with mastiffs, any aggression that they show is always fear based. I never saw a dominant mastiff in all my years of showing them, and I certainly saw enough of them first hand

His quote was the second paragraph. I didn't phrase that too well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

thanks, chris. i did see that post and i hope the poster "will" chime in here.

fwiw, i don't think my dog has a correct mastiff temperament. or at least, not a typical one. the trainer i brought him to as a pup said even at 12 weeks, he behaved more like a rottie. quite hard-headed.

mastiffs are known for congenital shyness, i had such a mastiff as a kid. but my dog's behavior is nothing like that.

My guess would be fear agression as he is fine with people he knows, etc.... I hope others offer suggestions as well. Good luck.

Hi Alice,

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do i have a confident dog or a fearful dog? is my dog dominant or submissive?

My take is you have a fearful dog. About 2 years ago, I adopted a 2-year-old male dog that acted very similar to the way you describe your dog acting (i.e. very fearful in certain situations but seemed to be confident in others). Are you asking if your dog is dominant/submissive to you or to other dogs? Your dog being dominant or submissive to other dogs has little to do with the problems you're dealing with; your dog must recognize you as the pack leader.

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is it possible for this to be just situational? and what does that tell me about his breeding? was he born this way or is it something i created?

The fearful behavior is situational and is probably a combination of genetics and environment. My fearful dog has made tremendous progress in the 2 years that I have had him; however, I believe he will always be fearful in certain situations because this is genetic. Being attacked by other dogs as a puppy can cause fear based dog aggression, but other than that it doesn't sound like you created it to me.

My advice is: BE CAREFUL WITH THIS DOG. My dog can be dangerous to people when he feels confined or is not comfortable with them petting him. Just this last weekend my wife and I were camping with our dogs and a couple from France approached us -- the woman wanted her husband to take her picture with my dog. They did not speak English so my attempts to warn her about my dog were futile. The lady insisted on hovering over him and hugging him; if I hadn't taken a firm hold of his collar I am sure he would have bit her.

I hope you have many enjoyable years with your dog.

mike, thanks so much for your reply.

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Hi Alice,

 Quote:

Are you asking if your dog is dominant/submissive to you or to other dogs? Your dog being dominant or submissive to other dogs has little to do with the problems you're dealing with; your dog must recognize you as the pack leader.

i'm asking if he can be both dominant AND submissive. and, if his aggression is fear-based or dominance-based, and if it is possible for BOTH to coexist in the same dog, depending on the situation and whether the aggression is directed at a dog or a human.

so are you saying my problem is because he doesn't recognize me as the pack leader?

what MORE could i be doing to get him to see me as pack leader?

thanks for sharing your experience with your own dog.

what is confusing to me is this: if the attacks from other dogs DID cause fear-based aggression, then why on earth would it be directed towards people? and why would he continue to be happy and excited to see other dogs?

your dog does sound like mine, though he has never bitten anyone. i recently had visitors who are great dog lovers. i explained to them what triggered the dog, and asked them to ignore him. however, they could not help themselves over the course of a five hour visit, they just had to pet ben. especially since whenever they ignored him, he'd approach them for attention.

i was interested to see that ben maintained a submissive posture with them while he was being petted, and kept coming back for more petting, but i also saw that he was afraid, tail tucked in, slight trembling, head down, whites of eyes showing. bizarre.

in future he will go in his run when guests come, and only come out if the guests can be trusted to completely ignore him.

you might be interested to know that i have seen improvement in him in these situations by making the time of the guests visiting his feeding time. he's happily off munching his raw whole chicken in the yard, a distance from the guests that he feels comfortable with, and i think it is creating a positive association.

were i in your shoes on your camping trip, i would have simply stepped in front of my dog with my arms extended to give the woman a strong non-verbal signal that the dog is dangerous.

Fearful, dominance might be his answer to perceived threat from other dogs. Whether or not that threat exists is in the dog's head.

Sounds fearful and not sound.

Not major issues though. Keep him away from other dogs and socialize the snot out of him around people.

What more could you want of a Mastiff?

The answer to your other question is that a dog's behavior directed at other dogs and a dog's behavior directed at people can be two distinctly different things.

Dogs can be dog aggressive without being people aggressive. Dogs can be people aggressive without being dog aggressive. Dogs can be submissive with people and shy, but can be dominant with other dogs.