Quote: paula colvett

... there are a few little things I'd like to desensitize Harvey to -- one being my 6yo "screamer" young son... every time he screams in excitement, fear, being chased by big brother or just for the he** of it, Harvey goes nuts.

Thanks!

Please start a new thread.

This one has gone so far off track so many times ....

I will be happy to help you, and others here will too. (Caveat: weekends are training days for many, so responses take a while. I am heading out there right now myself, but back this afternoon.)

Anna,
Thank you for an encouraging post, a real Easter present!
And I think you are the first to say that you understand how I felt about what is going on with Kobe. That means alot.

Guess what? I just got a call from a man who is a trainer. Yesterday my husband emailed several people in the area who train dogs, but I was not real enthusiastic about this as I do not have confidence in many trainers, especially with the kind of dog I have and with serious potential problems he has. this man told me he is a Schuntzand trainer, which is something I wanted to train Kobe in since I first got him but could not find a club in my area, the closest is in Tampa which is 2 hours away. after listening to me tell about Kobe's new behavior, and old habit of bouncing off the wall when he hears UPS truck, etc. he asked questions and said that this dog needs to work! I knew that this was true, and of course some people on the forum told
me that, but I had no idea how to make that happen. The man got interrupted so we did not finish conversation but right now I am kind of excited at the possibility of learning how to bring Kobe to his fullest potential as a German bloodline, Sch. background dog. I also feel that someone experienced in Sch. training is likely to be the kind of person who can help me, as opposed to the Pets Mart type trainers that are all over the place, most of whom probably never trained a GSD in their life. I only hope I am not too old and out of condition to do this kind of training, but this grandma is willing to try. I will give you more info after I talk to the man again.
Nancy

Connie,
I give up, don't know what desensiting is. Sounds interesting though.
I wrote to someone today, can't keep track of the folks I have posted to, ( wow, what a lot of typing, hope Kobe appreciates all of this marathon of trying to help him,) that I have not jumped immediately into looking for a trainer as I dread trying to find the "right" one, I think I went through this when Apache was little, maybe the door barking, and attended come classes that were a joke, and finding a Ed Frawley type trainer just isn't easy. I also told Ana, I think, that my husband emailed some of the trainers who the vet gave us names of yesterday. And while I was writing the post a man called who is experienced in SCH training. thats all in post from a couple of hours ago.
I talked to Lorent ( trainer) again and he is going to come to our house for a 2 hour visit on Tues. He definately sounds like he knows how to deal with GSDs and how to solve problems. From what he says its going to take work and time on our part ( there goes all my forum typing time and hours in the garden) and I know he is right that we have been short changing Kobe by not giving him some heavy duty training. I have also known for a long time that my husband is a part of the problem as he is so far from being a leader, forget alpha pack member, and Kobe considers him to be his play mate. He has never corrected Kobe, will not use prong collar, treats him like his big baby, even lets him on his lap, which I hit the ceiling and tell Kobe Down, which he does. NOthing I have said, over and over has impressed him that we are going to have problems with the dog if he doesn't act like he is in charge, and I hope that Lorent will be able to get this through to him as who knows how much damage to what Kobe thinks his position in the house is as a result of this submissiveness on Dwight's part.
I cannot remember what exactly you said in your posts but I was not motivated to answer them as they came across as You Are NOt Doing the Right Thing, YOu have the Wrong Attitude, YOu Do NOt Deserve to Own a Dog, if there was any offer of help I missed it. Could be due too to so many posts that I could only answer some of them and the ones that had an attitude of slamming me got put to the side.
I am worn out from talking on the phone and typing, am so hungry so will stop now and eat. after I walk Kobe.
Looking forward to hearing something I have not heard before.
Nancy

 Quote: nancy black

... I cannot remember what exactly you said in your posts but I was not motivated to answer them as they came across as You Are NOt Doing the Right Thing, YOu have the Wrong Attitude, YOu Do NOt Deserve to Own a Dog, if there was any offer of help I missed it.

OK. Since I made several posts, I'm not sure which one(s) came across as "You Are NOt Doing the Right Thing, YOu have the Wrong Attitude, YOu Do NOt Deserve to Own a Dog."

I sincerely want to know, though. I post pretty often here, sometimes I even have something to offer (I hope), and I try to make a point of not being judgmental or dismissive. So I really would like to know how I can do better at that.

My impression was that you were deliberately ignoring posts, so I am actually pleased to read that it's more along the line of something I can improve on in my own replies.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Hearing you when you whisper actually does not rule out hearing loss at either end of the scale, and of course vision problems are a possibility. ... So as Randy and others have said, I'd check him out, and then I'd start working on management/training. ... I (and I'm sure everyone) can pick out possible apprehension/anxiety aspects of each event: the person carrying a baby (that looked like who-knows-what from dog-level), the screeching table, the stranger. ... I agree with this from Tracy about Mike's post: Take the lead, take control, project that leadership thing, and walk the dog. ... Focus on me (by the dog), and emphasis on my own demeanor and my physical attitude of standing between the dog and everything else -- these are always major parts of desensitizing the reactive dog. .... How much do you know about reactive dogs and how to re-focus the dog's attention? I know many of us can help you with the nuts-n-bolts details of, for example, working with the dog at the edge of a busy and distracting center of activity. You now have a couple of concrete examples of distractions you can recreate and work around. ... I would begin a different protocol, though, with strangers and even acquaintances:
"He adores the attention and lets everyone come to him like they are his best friend" might be modified. Until you have a solid handle on what causes him anxiety and how to elicit his attention on you (both in general and as his first response to any new and potentially scary situation), I'd ratchet back his up-close-and-personal exposure to non-pack-members. ... I agree with others that this sounds like an opportunity to enhance your leadership skills and the dog's confidence rather than a reason to rehome the dog. .... JMO!

 Quote: connie sutherland

I'd make that vet appointment to check him out, and I'd start now to pay lots of attention to the dog's reactions to everything. It's easy for all of us to become complacent, and especially with a dog who has been particularly friendly and easygoing in the past.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: nancy black

I am somewhat floored to see you say that what Kobe is doing lately is "good ol GSD behavior". I do not buy that and I would bet alot of money that Ed Frawley would'nt either. Maybe you are not able to visualize what a large GSD lunging at you out of nowhere, barking like he is ready to take your head off looks like but it aint something I ever want to see again. And if this is "acceptable" behavior this GSD is out of here and I will never own another one.

I didn't read the words "good ol GSD behavior". I read "bratty GSD behavior." In other words, behavior that can and should be extinguished by training.

I didn't see the word "acceptable," either. I may have missed it, but I read pretty carefully.

I'm pretty sure that everyone on this thread can visualize "a GSD lunging at you out of nowhere, barking like he is ready to take your head off." Many of us own GSDs.


"This started about a year ago and I have tried everything but to no avail. I have talked to alot of dog people who offered some advice but this dog is almost uncontrollable until either the person goes away or I open the door, then he is a bunny rabbit, many times will lay down and wait to have his tummy rubbed. And since he has NEVER shown any aggression to anyone after I open the door (I mentioned yesterday about his docile temperament to the UPS men when I open the door) I have learned to live with this unpleasant habit but I hate it because it obviously makes anyone who comes over who is not comfortable with big dogs wish they had'nt come to my house. When I know someone is coming over I put Kobe on the back porch to avoid the King Kong reception."

What are the methods that you have tried to no avail? Learning to live with something is the opposite of training an acceptable replacement behavior.

For example, aside from the desensitizing mentioned earlier in the thread, teaching acceptable door behavior is far more useful than trying to correct or ignore unacceptable door behavior.

I asked earlier: Do you have desensitizing experience? If not, we can help. I would head for the vet and get clearance and then get whatever help you need to reestablish pack order.

If this dog is physically well, then you are describing behavior that we have read about here (and seen) many times -- behavior that has been in the making for a long time, and not a perfect dog suddenly turning into the GSD from hell.

My gut feeling is that someone who has successfully readied the dog for his CGC will be successful at this hurdle too, even if you need professional help to get you started.

I'm not minimizing anything you are concerned about. I do see it all as behavior that has probably come about (if there is no physical problem) through lacking pack structure work as the dog matured. That doesn't mean it can't be remedied.

All JMO, of course.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: tracy collins

 Quote: nancy black

I have found that it is alot easier to teach a dog to DO something than NOT to do something. Which is why I have dim hopes of reversing what he is doing now

You are probably right that it's easier to teach a dog to do something than not to do something...but in that revelation could also be your answer.

My constant training mantra is exactly that: Teach what you do want instead of focusing on correcting what you don't want.

Our dogs need training. It's up to us to provide it. It's not always simple and it usually requires repetition and patience and consistency. But you have readied the dog for his CGC. You can do this too.


Hence my "door behavior" post earlier.

"Dim hopes" isn't what this should inspire. Teaching what we want is a satisfying exercise for the owner and the dog. A fallback command is like money in the bank.

"Tried the place command and it didn't work" means that a little specializing needs to go into it. I'd hire a dogwalker or a neighborhood teenager to ring the doorbell after a lot of other distraction and venue proofing.

How did you work at the place command?



eta
Also, have you done desensitizing work before?

 Quote: connie sutherland

How much do you know about desensitizing and about pack structure?

I am asking the same things over and over. What you describe is a pack-structure and training issue.

This is not "nutty stuff" (quoting from your post above).


Have you considered getting expert training help? I strongly recommend it.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Kelly,
I almost ordered the DD collar but Cindy said it would not be good for the correction I needed in training Kobe away from barking at the door. But if this collar is what you use for hanging a dog that answers the question of why I have not been able to hang him with a prong collar! Some folks on a GSD forum told me about hanging being the best way to correct a hard dog but they said they did it with the prong, and I gave up as I could'nt lift him off his feet. Maybe I was using the wrong collar, do you think? Is the DD collar similar to the choke chain?
any idea why Cindy did not think this collar was good for corrections? should I order it anyway, based on your experience?
thanks for the tips on getting him started, but I still have doubts that he will ever be able to ignore that darned UPS truck, but it is more than worth trying.
Nancy

1. Are you talking about hanging the dog for barking at the UPS truck?

Even if I were going to hang a dog for barking at a truck, which I would not even consider, did you see this?

One point I want to make though, is that MY dogs were taught to respect the command BEFORE the distraction was introduced.

Again, this is a training and leadership issue.


2. Caveats about getting vet clearance were coupled with and then start management and training and pack work.

And these caveats were largely based on the statements about sudden behavior changes. It has become clear over these eight pages that there is nothing sudden about this.

I gather from the non-response that there has been no professional trainer consultation (I ask this because you are talking about re-homing and being beyond your training ability here)? No desensitizing work has been done and pack structure has not been addressed consistently?

The vet visit would be followed by these three items, IMO.

 Quote: Nancy Black

I talked to Lorent ( trainer) again and he is going to come to our house for a 2 hour visit on Tues. He definately sounds like he knows how to deal with GSDs and how to solve problems. From what he says its going to take work and time on our part ( there goes all my forum typing time and hours in the garden) and I know he is right that we have been short changing Kobe by not giving him some heavy duty training. ...

Good!

What are the chances of getting your husband on board (information that is crucial to the thread)? A family member who is working against the primary handler is a huge detriment.

Anna,
I am probably old enough to be your grandmother, but I started early with having children so I am not 90!
I am almost in excellant condition for an old dame, except for back pain intermittedly due to auto accident 12 years ago and as you will find out some day your physical strength diminishes as you age which is why correcting Kobe effectively is almost impossible. But I assure you my mental faculties are as good as ever and my determination is I am hell when I am well and seldom sick. Who knows what people on the forum might be confused about, all they have to know is I say what I mean and I mean what I say, though it is hard to get the whole picture on a forum like this as you can not write everything that might be part of the story, due to limited time and energy in typing to so many people. I'm just glad one of my daughters is having Easter dinner as I would not have been able to confuse people these last couple of days. But surely it does not take a genius to take what I have said to mean that it is not a case of physical strength or money but simply that I am at a loss to comprehend what it will take to train my dog how NOT to go on an attack mode at his whim, with no provocation or warning. I did not mean I would easily give Kobe up, but as a last resort, if I could not find a way to be able to trust him in the world, as owning a dangerous dog is not an option. Why else would I have come on the forum, I really do have more to do with my time than read and answers posts. And what the heck would I do with 100 lbs. of raw meat, bones and organs in the freezer if let Kobe go?

I suppose you would have to be around Kobe and I to understand that your wild stab in the dark that he doesn't respect me is off the beam. I can't prove that he respects me, I just know it, and other than letting him get in the miserable habit of going bonkers at the door he obeys me consistedly. His obedience work this morning was not done by a dog who disrespects his trainer, or if it was he has been well trained to not show it.
The trainer I talked to today on the phone said he doubted very much that there is anything medically wrong with Kobe and knowing Kobe's excellant condition, appearance, over all attitude I am sure he is right. But as you have found out, there comes a time in every dog's life when he will not be healthy and vibrant and after a time of taking care of him as much as you can you have to say goodbye. It sounds like you did a wonderful job with your girl in her old age and you have to know that she loved you and your husband very much for all the care you gave her. did you get another dog or are you not ready to do that yet?
Happy Easter,
Nancy

 Quote: Nancy Black

I started Kobe in boot camp today and he was sharp, eager and on the ball with every command I gave him. He went to his bed, stayed until I called him to come, then ran to me and sat in front, then came around to heel position, sat. He hesitated when told to go to his bed a few times, but kept his eyes on me until I guided him back to the bed, lured him in with hotdog, he sat, then laid down. We did that over and over and he got bit of hotdog after every point of obedience and he thought that was an easy way to get something he loves. The amazing thing was, shortly after we stopped the work a man came to pick up DH to go fishing, and though he did not come to the house, left his truck in the road, this kind of thing always inspired Kobe to show his butt with wild barking, just the appearance of a person near his property sets him off. BUT the front door was open and Kobe just looked out through the screen, not a sound, just stared at the man until his Daddy left! I almost gave this boy a whole package of hotdogs, but gave him tons of praise instead.I cannot believe that one session of refreshing obedience caused him to change so drastically, but how could it be just a coincidence? Whatever it was it was a big motivation to keep working with him...

Whether this will be enough to reverse the unwarranted aggression I can only hope but its back to the drawing board for the two of us.

Nancy,

Whatever fog has lifted since yesterday's stress and confusion - just keep it up!! It's NOT just coincidence that the more you reinforce good obedience in one aspect of your dog's training, the more headway you'll make in other areas... every session you work with Kobe will strengthen your relationship, your role as leader, and as provider of guidance and good things - this is your foundation, and it will apply to everything you do with him.

I applaud you also for starting the search for a good trainer who can help you trouble shoot the issues that remain more difficult to address, or just more serious. You are right to be selective, but I'm confident that between references here on the board, and references from your own circles, you'll find someone well equipped to instruct you.

*And as a quick note: sometimes it can be hard to judge intentions through the written words in web forum posts and responses, but of all the members here that joined in the discussion to try to help you and Kobe, Connie is certainly not one to be called out for rude accusations or disrespectful attitude... she's one of Leerburg's most valued, knowledgeable, and level headed assets and you'd be wise to take her matter of fact inquiry and suggestions to heart without taking offense.

~Natalya

QUOTE: I am at a loss to comprehend what it will take to train my dog how NOT to go on an attack mode at his whim

I'm glad you went the "get professional help" route.

There is nothing at all embarrassing or face-losing about getting help. I hope very much that the SchH guy can convince your husband that his way of living with the dog will only negate training that you and the trainer will do.

Good for you Nancy. I am glad you are going to give it a try. And I agree...all German Sheppard Dogs need to have a job or work, that is what keeps them happy and sane. My dog is a pet, but I still play hide and seek or some activity daily with her. She loves me to hide so she can sniff to seek me out.

One grandma to another, I know GSD are not couch potatoes and need activity, but maybe we get the dog we need to keep our body's moving and our minds sharp.

Best to you and Knob,

Anna

Holy cow, girl, you really did a lot of posting on this thread, and I'm glad you sent them as I missed a few of them in trying to keep up with the tons of posts that seemed to need answers. I don't remember seeing the one about desensitizing until today. i know there is one from awhile back that asked about the sheep dog incident and Apache, fully intended to answer it but could NOT get to it yet. And most of all, all the dictates about getting help by using a trainer, no one seemed to realize that I had gone the much dictated route of getting blood work done and until I got results from that which would show if training work was even necessary, I was not motivated to investigate trainers, which as I think I told you, unless you know someone or have a personal recommendation you are putting your dog into the hands of someone who may or may not know how to correct a very serious problem. I can only say that if I find out that medical malfunction is not what has brought on the sudden aggression I would have searched the bushes for a competant person to work with me. If for no other reason than the many assurances from this forum that pro. trainer help could provide the magic bullet that I needed.
I don't know if Dwight would go on the forum, except in some perinent areas that apply to him. but I talked about this to Lorent and he is more than willing to lower the boom to Dwight on the subject of his molly coddling Kobe and how to shape up and change his ways. it will be worth the price of his coming out to hear him do that.
darn, I have to cook dinner, haven't been in the garden all day, so much to do there. Apologies for not answering some of your posts, I will go in the garden and eat worms LOL.
nancy