*shrug*

I reward my dog.
Variable rewards, at this juncture.

But I sometimes find my dog enjoying the work so much that the reward is little more than an afterthought.
Did I train this enjoyment, or is it genetic?
Can it be bred for?
If it CAN should we test for THAT instead of high prey?
Is one more ideal than another, or is it preference?
Is a dog anticipating a reward truly working, or just killing time?

Breed dogs that will work hard to win a ball?
Breed dogs that will work hard because they enjoy the work?

I need a nap.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

*shrug*


Breed dogs that will work hard to win a ball?
Breed dogs that will work hard because they enjoy the work?

I guess I don't see why they can't be the same dog. I guess most of the dogs I have had enjoyed the work as much as the reward at the end, and the reward is nothing more than a paycheck and communication to the dog that they did well and I appreciate it.

As I said before, Quinn LOVES bite work. That is his job right now. The reward for him *is* doing the job, so is the bite at the end of the bark and hold a reward to him? Your darned right it is, but it is also part of his job. Lately we have been doing some cattle herding. He loves that too. He gets no reward there short of a good job, but you can bet I taught him all of the commands like down, stand, back and up using treats and tugs.

I love working with kids. A lot. I do it for the joy of the job. That does not mean that I don't also appreciate the paycheck I get.

Why does it have to be one way or the other?

If the training is done well, you fade the REQUIRED rewards, and then give them intermittently. And even if you don't have to, why wouldn't you?

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I reward my dog.
Variable rewards, at this juncture.

But I sometimes find my dog enjoying the work so much that the reward is little more than an afterthought.
Did I train this enjoyment, or is it genetic?.

By training with varible rewards, like one should, it is trained.

Thats just one unedumacated opinion, though.

No,
It is not trained.
If one has to put it under a heading, I'd put it with the pack instinct.

Wherever we want to park the biddablity/love of work factor makes little difference to me (shrug), it's enmeshed in the character and temperament of the animal, and not trained. Or at least should be.
Without the balancing wieght of many other facets within the basic temperament of the dog, prey becomes next to useless. High or low.

I think Randy called it, dead on.
Pack drive.
A dog who lives and dies for his pack.

Randy,
I agree with you that the balance of the dog is what makes it what it is, but, prey is a part of that equation. Again, it seems that too many in this thread do not want to admit that. Prey is a part of the makeup of a dog. Prey, ultimately, is how a dog survives, without it, they do not eat. It is a part of the "Pack Instinct", as it was worded here. Pack instinct, or pack drive, is what training a dog is all about. Whoever, or whatever, is the pack leader (the alpha) is in control of the members of the pack. In a dog (or wolf) pack the lesser members hunt and kill other animals (this is prey). The alpha then comes along and eats the kill. When the alpha is done eating, the lesser pack members are rewarded for their efforts by the pack leader by allowing them to eat.
We as dog owners reward our dogs for offering us the behavior that we seek. The reward can be anything, but, for the most part we have removed the food aspect from it because almost all of us feed our dogs on a scheduled basis. This is why a ball, tug, or whatever a person uses as a reward has been popularized. These things, just like a pat on the head, finding Mr. Clever at the end of the track, or at the very least showing the dog that you are not displeased, communicate to the dog that we are pleased with what they have done. What is used as a reward is not important, the communication to the dog that it has done what we seek is of utmost importance.
It kind of goes back to my original answer to Ray about his dog's head shaking and growling while on the sleeve. Who cares?
As long as you aren't abusing your dog, who cares how you taught it, motivated it, or inspired it, or whatever word you want to use, to offer the behavior you sought and who cares how you choose to reward it. If it works for you and the dog then you have figured out how to effectively communicate with your dog. That's what training is, effectively communicating with your dog.

To Ray F.,
If I remember correctly from a PM last fall, you obtained your pup from Nate Harves. If you really have a lot of training questions I would seek out his counsel. He knows the lineage of your dog well. He has a ton of training knowledge obtained here and in Europe, and works with, quite possibly, one of the most well rounded Schutzhund and Police dog trainers in this country in Mike Diehl. You also have a very knowledgeable trainer near you by the name of Wallace Payne. Seek him out, as well.
Learning from them one on one will teach you much, much more than reading about it on the internet. The internet is a good place for theories and philosophizing and can get you up to speed quicker on certain aspects of training, but, will never take the place of actually going out and doing it.

 Quote:

The internet is a good place for theories and philosophizing and can get you up to speed quicker on certain aspects of training, but, will never take the place of actually going out and doing it.

Thumbs up!