Quote: CJ Barrett

Supplements, ..... Maybe she thought I was trying to concoct up some magic potion.
I'd really like to talk to Vince's more holistic vet but I don't want to undermine this one either. I think this is where it really pays to have a vet you trust. But that trust is earned thru time. Hopefully we'll get there. He did recommend these guys and I do trust that.

CJ, you are the client and the owner of the dog. It's difficult to walk the line between trusting your vet, your specialist, and other practitioners, but in the end it is "your team" that you are putting together for Vince. You asked the vet a question about the supplements and did not get a satisfactory response- so ask someone else you trust in your team......that does not mean you are undermining your specialist..it simply means that you are open to as many possible ways of helping Vince. Everyone has their blind spot!

Does the vet think that the disc is still leaking...did she give you any indication about what she thought was going on now?

Sounds as though you are doing a great job keeping Vince as relaxed as possible...I would use this as my guide line..if the muscles are relaxed and the tension is minimized there will be more chance of healing.

From what you say about the Prednisone treatment you have about another three weeks on it now.....and a lot can happen in that time...so BELIEVE and reward yourself for all your hard work!

That's a really good way to put it Lisabet. And I suppose if his vet feels there would be no detrimental reactions, it may not even be worth mentioning. Like I gave him some liver today with his deer neck.

She said nothing about additional leaking only that it's imperative he be immobilized. She was interested in the lump and wanted to know about any additional swelling. There doesn't seem to be any but it's still there. She wanted to know about the foot reflex thing and I said it went down flat on top and was a second or two before he flipped it back.

She would really like to see him again and we rehashed how unfortunate it was that she didn't get to see him the last time. And we discussed the process and possible results that could come out of a CT scan.

We're playing the waiting game which can have very successful results but she also feels the diagnostic testing is not complete so she can’t be 100 percent sure what we’re dealing with. They, the team there, does feel 99 percent sure it's a herniated disc.

I told her I was open to the CT if she felt it was absolutely necessary. She wants to give it two weeks, with strict restrictions and see how he fairs. We'll most likely book an appointment at that time, depending on how things are going.

 Quote: CJ Barrett

She would really like to see him again and we rehashed how unfortunate it was that she didn't get to see him the last time. And we discussed the process and possible results that could come out of a CT scan.

We're playing the waiting game which can have very successful results but she also feels the diagnostic testing is not complete so she can’t be 100 percent sure what we’re dealing with. They, the team there, does feel 99 percent sure it's a herniated disc.

I have been mulling over in my mind what I would do if I were in your shoes CJ! When recovery is slow like this it is so very difficult. I think that it might help if when you speak to your specialist next time you ask some questions based on these kinds of cases, (herniated discs) that present themselves to the clinic. I would ask if this kind of injury is common or if they see just a handful of cases each year. (Don't be shy about asking because some injuries that you might assume are rare are actually much more common than you think...and vice versa). Of those cases that present themselves and of those in the literature, what is the average time for recovery?

I know that when I held out and did not have the CT scan done on my horse last year the vet was pressing me very hard to have it done. From the point of view of diagnostics, it is true it can be used to confirm or to check that there isn't anything else going on...or perhaps even to explain why the recovery is slow. At the end of the day, though, I felt that it wasn't going to change the protocol for recovery.

I know that there was quite a discussion about whether to have the scan done or not earlier, and that the general feeling was to hold off at that time. Now if perhaps you feel that you might be more open to having it done you might at least get reasons for the slow recovery and that might help you to deal with this process.

I would also ask questions of your specialist around the issue of surgery. What kind of surgery do they do? What are the recovery rates? How successful are these operations? What are the risks? (the risk of my dog nor coming through sedation is always a huge worry to me. I thought I had been over-worrying all these years until I discovered very recently that the owner of Lusi's full sister had had a dog that simply never came through the anaesthetic from a spaying op).

Quite some years ago when I was having severe disc problems myself we reluctantly decided that I should perhaps have an op. It was not until I was having a pre-op exam that I discovered the surgical success rate. It was much lower than I had been led to believe. Then I discovered that the probability of a further hernia was the same after the operation as before; it was not a situation of the disc being totally cured, but rather that the symptoms of the hernia were alleviated through surgical means.
I was somewhat unceremoniously ejected from the hospital bed and half crippled got home and recovered very slowly. I have to smile now as I remember it all! It was impossible to think back then that I would lead a normal life...but I did!

The more information you can get the better you can make a decision that you are happy with!

CJ its ok to have to be told twice, thrice or 100 times if you don't "get" the answer. Take it from me, it has been known to happen. Don't pussy foot around "Why?" which is a completely legitimate response to her saying she wouldn't recommend them. I actually think her advice not to add anything is sound practice.

How do you know what is working if you have several different modalities going at one time? Now if Vince had been through a full protocol of her suggestions and there was no improvement I would definitely start to look for alternatives, from holistic to surgery but since Vince being Vince hypnotized you into allowing him to run wild run free a couple of times on the first round of prednisone I don't think I would say her advice is not working.

In this situation I think it is more proactive to cue into how he is doing now (be a dog, live in the moment ) and look into alternatives when or if you need to, otherwise you'll be crazier than a pent up Vince. Again so much easier said than done.

One other point in regards to exercise (my nemesis is restricted activity seriously I am a major fail; so I understand your struggle with this)dogs are adaptable, once this becomes Vince's norm, it will be just that his normal daily living, and your biggest challenge will be how to keep his weight stable.

Also, since I like to think I am a mind reader I bet if you ask the Vet why she doesn't recommend the supplements it is because there have been no studies on their use in conjunction with prednisone. I have found my Vet to be open but not experimental. I hope it is the same in your case it makes for a much easier relationship.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

In this situation I think it is more proactive to cue into how he is doing now (be a dog, live in the moment ) and look into alternatives when or if you need to, otherwise you'll be crazier than a pent up Vince. Again so much easier said than done.

While I agree with everything else that you have said Sheila I am not sure that I agree with this statement. The problem with waiting for relevant information in this situation where recovery is slow is that you begin to second guess yourself. By being proactive and using this time to familiarise oneself with possible alternatives, one is able to constantly keep a sense of direction and of control. More importantly, one is much better prepared to go for the long haul of slow recovery when one understands that surgery is not an easy option, nor is it without its complement of risks. If you do a risk analysis of the options available I think that some options will have a lower risk and higher probabllity of success than others. I like to know what the possible risks are in each scenario before I make a decision. Patience, time and information are my mantra!

Wow guys, a lot more great information. I could copy a paste a lot of stuff you guys said that has really hit home, but I have a feeling this going to be really long already.

I haven't specifically questioned her qualifications with all this but the surgeon involved is quite accredited. He seems quite mobile and is often called into the larger centers when more difficult surgeries need to be performed.

From my understanding he doesn't get fully involved until the diagnostic testing is done, however is consulted thru the more difficult cases. I won't post his name just yet but should it come to a decision on any type of surgery, I will most certainly let you folks know.

I will ask for references of owners that have had this type of specific surgery done. Recovery is a huge question with me. And not that it can't be totally relevant, but I rather not be put in touch with a Shih Tzu owner. I'd like to speak to someone with a larger breed, high energy dog.

And I can't even begin to express my fear regarding anesthetic. We also had a good friend whose female pup never came out of a spay, died on the operating table after successful surgery. They were so devastated, and I for them.

As slow as things are going now though, I do feel I'm to blame. The first round of prednisone had him so "normal" again, no weakness and very high functioning. I could see that he was still hesitant to jump up on anything though, which is quite a normal activity for him (large logs, steep mountainsides, cement barriers, etc) but I let him move to his heart's content as we slowly wandered down the mountain paths. I didn't force him to do any of the crazy retrieves that he loves so much (down steep canyons and gullies, over logs, thru thick underbrush) and thought that was enough.

Obviously, just because I was restricting myself did not mean I was truly restricting him. He slowly worsened over the second week off the prednisone and then is was OMG, he’s not better. I knew better than to allow this, but for him, it was sooooo tame.

I completely opened up with the Dr., told her everything that I had allowed and that's when she said, he needs to be CRATED, at all times, if this has a chance at working.

She explained that an injury like this could take months to heal and what I was allowing is a couple months down the road when he's had solid and stable range of movement returned.

So yes, I was a little humbled at that point. I won't say shy but needing to know the next step was foremost on my mind. And I got the feeling that as much as she feels the CT will give them a better picture, she's confident it is a herniated disc and comfortable with the added prednisone protocol, almost like it wasn't unusual at this point.

She doesn't seem to be pushing surgery although she feels if this next course doesn't produce the results we're looking for, fully restored neurological function; he's a good candidate for it.

As far as the supplements, besides one of Vince's more holistic vets, I have never been able to have a good conversation with any vet regarding them. This is actually more Bob's forte. He's got on me on quite a few too, studies up them and is quite proficient in their use. Open injuries for example, he treats with vitamin E and golden seal whereas I just use Neosporin. His injuries heal quicker and cleaner.

And Garrett's on a bunch of stuff. He's a 10 and half year old husky with a 4 year diagnosis of Cushing's and has been on Lysodren for as long. Apparently most don't make it this long on this powerful drug and quite frankly, he couldn't be healthier (as per the vet).

So yes, I believe in them and we completely support their use but there are many things we don't know either. Bob's for simple and so am I. If the vet said she didn't recommend them at this point, we're good with that too.

She is completely open to questions at any time though. I didn't press cause it just didn't seem the right thing to do at the time. I can't really explain it, maybe I caught her off guard and by the next time we talk, she'll have a chance to think about it, knowing that I’ve questioned their use. Lisabet, I will ask "Why" the next time we talk.

And Sheila, you just crack me up with your wisdom. Much like Lisabet, understanding "Why" things are a certain way rather than merely knowing that things are a certain way is a clear path to that higher knowledge.

And trust me, I'm one of the biggest proponents of filling in those blanks for people as well as ensuring that any blatant statements shot my way have substance and backing behind them.

My boss hates me for it. Not really but says I make sure everything is out in the open and that I tend to go where most people wouldn't. I have a problem with authority as it's blankly laid out. If you’ve got the title, you're answers better be able to explain why and I generally hold them to a much higher, more accountable standard.

For some reason, and I'm sure it's guilt and ignorance, not to mention a incredible emotional tie to this solidly, bonded soul I've had problems fully understanding this, to me, complicated issue.

Every ounce of what you guys have written has so much meaning and again, I'm sounding like a broken record here, but I can't thank you enough. You're highlighting those areas for me that really need to come out right now.

I've never quite dealt with vets, or doctors for that matter, in this capacity. They stitch something up, they put a cast on, give you a pill and things get better. And to be going thru this with Vincent just adds that additional layer of complications.

He could easily be a dog that some vet’s would refuse to treat. I guess, in a way, the pussy footing comes from my advocating on his behalf. If they see that I'm easy to get along with, maybe it will somehow overshadow Vincent's short comings.

I don't know, but Sheila, you are correct. I need to stiffen up my spine when dealing with this Dr. so we get to the bottom of what's happening with Vince's.

As well, you are so right Lisabet. I am second guessing myself, constantly. Had I gone with this CT or done the MRI route, we would have the solid information. And although money is a concern, it really has no bearing on this, it's within our means if it's the right thing to do. At this point though, from what this Dr. is saying, we have this one final protocol before we go there. I think it's the right decision. I hope.

In an earlier post, I mentioned that my dog recovered from a spinal problem with extensive crating, medication (prednisone plus ?), and physical therapy. So, it can work but, it took her months. Believe me, she was a very intense high drive GSD and I know how hard it is to follow the Vet's orders with that kind of dog. Sheila is right ... with time, it became her "new normal". And, weight management is crucial to a good outcome. Remember, that the extra weight he may put on could make his full recovery more difficult (especially when you are later allowed more exercise). If you have trouble following the restricted activity, you need to know that the restrictions following spinal surgery are even more onerous.

 Quote: Mary K.Pope

In an earlier post, I mentioned that my dog recovered from a spinal problem with extensive crating, medication (prednisone plus ?), and physical therapy.

Yes you did Mary, and I can't thank you enough for sharing your experience. It was that post in conjunction with a few others that had/have me feeling quite confident with the course we are on.

How did you do it though? And "prednisone plus"? Is that the name of a medication? Or do you mean you added stuff with it?

Any ideas on low cal stuff I can put in his everlasting treat ball? Most stuff can go in but it has to come out again.

 Quote: CJBarrett

Anyone ever put tripe in it?

for Delilah I started adding minced liver with the tripe, so when I'm working with the tripe I do stuff it into a couple kongs,

I've also heard of cow hoofs stuffed with tripe.

Thanks Dave, I like the idea.

On tripe nights I feed them outside. Can't imagine that stuff hitting the floor, let alone the carpet.

So when you freeze it, or maybe you don’t...but if you do, and when you give it to them for entertainment indoors, do you get the smell and does it get on the crate floor? His is carpeted.

I guess I'm asking if it's a stinky mess. Peanut butter and cream cheese are easy to deal with. I handle tripe as little as possible.