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Neat thing about this...you don't have to participate if you so choose.

Dude if you think this with AKC will do anything positive for the Gene Pool the same one that will eventually involve me some how, particularly, INDIRECTLY your dillusional. AKC getting involve in bite programs WILL reduce quality gene pools for several factors. Mainly folks with very weak dogs will pass and think Oh I have the AKC champion, I'm going to breed and sell my pups for $95,000! Idiots will buy them and so goes the circle, Oh and the NEIGHBORHOOD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Does ISDS even have tests though? Heck, any breed can pass a test with some training. That is like comparing go carting to the Indy 500 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> As for challenging, that is dog dependant. No matter the breed, a good dog will excel while a poor dog will struggle. I think that the reason that there are so many different organizations for herding (AHBA, ASCA, AKC etc) is due to the fact that different trials set ups favor different breeds of dogs and their working styles. Most of the trials are not entirely realistic (with the AKC admittedly being the most obedience oriented IMO).

Just because a dog has a herding title (in *any* organization) does not mean it will be a good farm/ranch dog. I think that it is similar with SchH. Just because a dog has a SchH title does not guarantee that it will "protect" you.

I do not think that the herding trials only benefit the AKC. For better or worse, I think that it encourages some people to do herding with their dogs. I know in my breed (ACDs), herding interest has grown tremendously and that is a good thing. Obviously, many BC people disagree as is evident in the split between bench and working but that is not the case with breeds like ACDs and I hope we never go that route. However, I do think that it is different with protection sports. I think that the AKC is capitalizing on SAR/K9 interests in the general public after 9/11.

I'd be willing to bet good money that "weak" dogs pass USA/DVG/WDA trials most every weekend somewhere. I will presume your breed is a GSD, given that the GSDCA, not the WDA, will only be able to put on a total of 5 trials, for a maximum of 50 dogs, that's not a lot of dogs entering your gene pool considering the amount of GSD's registered every year.

I personally have no problem with the program and have no "delusions" about it helping the gene pool one way or the other. I look at it as another avenue to trial, and just like USA/DVG/WDA/AWDF the validity of any given trial will boil down to helper work and judging.

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I think that the AKC is capitalizing on SAR/K9 interests in the general public after 9/11.

Ingrid, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Aside from that....we have in the US:

USCA
DVG
GSDCA-WDA
NARA
US Mondio Ring
PSA
NVBK America
NVBK - Direct Affiliate
ASR
Campagne
Service Dogs of America

...and probably a half-dozen more organizations I can't think of, for a group of enthusiasts that number about 4000-5000 people in the entire US.
I think this is just another opportunity to further fragment an already small and fragmented population.

When you mention that the AKC herding is good because it allows ALL breeds to participate, while the ISDS is only for border collies and pretty well unrealistic for other herding breeds... It kinda made me smile. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's my whole POINT! The working BC is the BEST DARN SHEEPDOG on the planet BECAUSE he can work in the ISDS-style trials (inwhich most dogs are working ranch dogs anyway) and if other breeds were tested with such stringent requirements, in ways appropriate for their breeding, they wouldn't be so far behind.

I do see what you were saying, and understand how you meant what you said. And I for one agree that ISDS trials would do little for a cattle dog... But then again I would hope to see your cattle dogs working cattle in... uh... whatever venue it is that is highly respected for testing cattle dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm not familiar with them, but my guess is there is some sort of stock dog association that holds cattle trials. My point is that the AKC does everything "dumber" so that more people can (let's be honest) pay to enter.

Saying that AKC herding has value because ISDS trials are too difficult for anything but BC's is like saying that this AKC working title has value because it's getting to the point that other sports are too hard for anything but malinois. Does that really do anything to make better dogs? Or just allow more people to do mediocre work with a wider variety of breeds?

I definitely don't disagree with you that SchH is watered down beyond recognition as well. I actually find it interesting that SchH titles are even considered with the same recognition as SchH titles on dogs from decades past.

I did think of one positive aspect to having the AKC/CKC recognize protection work, though... It makes it MUCH less likely that protection work will be banned because that would cut a significant chunk of revenue out of the kennel clubs' pocket... Just another side of the coin I guess.

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Saying that AKC herding has value because ISDS trials are too difficult for anything but BC's is like saying that this AKC working title has value because it's getting to the point that other sports are too hard for anything but malinois. Does that really do anything to make better dogs? Or just allow more people to do mediocre work with a wider variety of breeds?

I agree with everything you said except this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I never said that the AKC herding is good because "ISDS is too difficult." I said that it was a SHEEPDOG organization and there are other types of herding dogs and livestock. I also said that AKC herding is good for getting people involved in herding that might not necessarily do so. In my breed, there is no misconception that a herding title in the AKC is anything other than that - a herding title. The reality is, titles are titles and real workers are real workers. If people want a real working dog, no matter the venue, it behooves them look beyond titles to the dogs themselves.

As to other breeds being so behind, I think that is a matter of opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You admitted that you know little about ACDs - so how can you say they are so far behind? Are they better on sheep than BCs? Hell no! But they are VERY effective with cattle and the breed has worked hard to ensure that there is not a split in the breed. I guess it just gets my ire up when people assume that every herding breed besides BCs are mere posers. BCs are superior when it comes to sheep but as I said before, there are more things to herd than just sheep ;-) Since I have taken this thread WAYYY off into a tangent, I will subsist at this time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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I did think of one positive aspect to having the AKC/CKC recognize protection work, though... It makes it MUCH less likely that protection work will be banned because that would cut a significant chunk of revenue out of the kennel clubs' pocket... Just another side of the coin I guess.

Good point Jenn, although I'm still a bit leary of the AKC being a mouthpiece for protection work.

Truthfully, I don't think it's going to change much of anything. I'm not worried about it screwing up any breeds, the AKC has managed to do that without this program in place. The reality is that people who train & breed crap dogs with half-a$$ titles will continue to do so & people who train & breed quality dogs will continue to do so. It just never gets any easier for people new to working dogs to get a clear introduction to the work/sports.

I don't really see it fragmenting the protection sports anymore than it is now, basically you have Schutzhund, Ring Sports and Street Sports. For the time being your probably talking less than 10 trials a year between the 4 parent clubs that will be authorized to hold a trial and a total of 100 dogs.

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while the ISDS is only for border collies and pretty well unrealistic for other herding breeds...

ISDS is NOT just for border collies. ANY breed can enter, however, the skills needed/used are to SHOWCASE the border collie and what it was BRED for.

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The working BC is the BEST DARN SHEEPDOG on the planet BECAUSE he can work in the ISDS-style trials (inwhich most dogs are working ranch dogs anyway) and if other breeds were tested with such stringent requirements, in ways appropriate for their breeding, they wouldn't be so

Yikes. Sounds like something one would hear from a border collie trialer. The border collie is the BEST breed for what it was BRED to do. And this is how trials are set up to show you. HOWEVER, they are not the best herding dog on the planet. I held a fun trial on my flock of sheep a few years ago. Had a variety of breeds enter, including border collies. ALL the border collies were literally RUN OFF the feild by my sheep (except my guy who works them on a regular basis). My 5 month old gsd with VERY little training was able to do the course with the sheep with an experienced handler. THese border collies that were run off the field are the ones that are WINNING at ISDS trials.

Sorry to burst your bubble but most dogs entered in ISDS trials are not working ranch dogs. Some are for sure and it is definatly they 'goal' of a real 'stock person' to showcase thier working dogs but many,many are also just pets or weekend herders who love the breed and trials. (and hopefully are helping keep the breed true to it's origin).

Try and take the majority of ISDS border collies and do close up pen work or ranch work. WOn't happen and they can't do it. HOwever, there are reasons. The breed was bred to work in BIG, LARGE open spaces. The pressure that comes from having to work in a small pen/arena is often 'too much ' for them.

I took a clinic from Scott Glen and had a good talks with him. (he is ONE of the TOP border collie handlers in North America and went to the World's last year represting Canada.) They have many of the same issues in thier breed as we do in the german shepherd. Some of the dogs trialing at the ISDS level are great dogs, some medicore with great handlers and some are 'o.k.' with exceptional handlers.

Having said that, yes, thier trials generally have kept thier breed 'true' to it's roots and working ability. IF the owner/handler chooses to use it that way.

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Does ISDS even have tests though?

No, they would never consider bringing out their dog to an ISDS trial until they were fully trained and ready to trial (usually at a higher level than they trial). In addition, thier trials are set up differently. Once the handler has 'won' so many trials at a certain level the handler MUST now compete in a higher level NO MATTER what level the dog is actually ready for. This is taking into consideration the skill/experience of the handler at a trial and not just the dog. Keeps things more fair and encourages the 'younger' more inexperienced people to enter. As well the dog that wins so many trials must also move up to the next level. So, you can have an expereinced handler with an inexperienced dog that must compete at the higher level. Hope that makes sense.

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I think that the reason that there are so many different organizations for herding (AHBA, ASCA, AKC etc) is due to the fact that different trials set ups favor different breeds of dogs and their working styles. Most of the trials are not entirely realistic (with the AKC admittedly being the most obedience oriented IMO).

Some good points. GENERALLY, AKC A course, and CKC arena course are set up to test an 'all around' herding dog at different skills that they may use on a ranch/farm etc. AKC however, is quite differnt than CKC in a VERY important aspect. CKC trials are or can be set up different for EVERY trial. You must have certain tasks in the course but the course can be set up any way with a variety of tasks asked for. This way your dog must know and be trained in the SKILL not the course. (as you can see, very different than AKC). Many border collies would not do well at a CKC trial. They would not be able to do pen work (which is required) and other small 'space' work.

Other herding avenues were set up to be more like CKC. Different coures, skills etc.

THe whole point to most herding trials however, is not too much different than that of SchH. It is not really the 'trial' that proves the dog but the training it took to get the dog to that level! THe amount of pressure you can put on a dog to train what is needed. (provided the trial is actually testing the dog's skills well and not it's obedience).

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Just because a dog has a herding title (in *any* organization) does not mean it will be a good farm/ranch dog. I think that it is similar with SchH. Just because a dog has a SchH title does not guarantee that it will "protect" you.

Absolutely. NO matter what the trial (herding, SchH etc), it can showcase an incredible dog or showcase a mediocre dog with an incredible hanlder.

Even in herding trials/circles you will have those who will argue /talk about how that dog is a great trial dog...but would never take it as a working dog. Trials are 'big things' to many people and sadly not just to showcase the great working dog you have. Often it is to showcase and work on people's ego's.

Awesome post, Shelley. Have you ever considered moving to the Kootenays? We'd love to have you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />