I didn't say they were a member I said they had an agreement and that agreement is as follows:

Federation Cynologique Internationale (FCI) Based in Belgium, FCI licenses international shows in its 72 member countries, including the well-known annual World Show. FCI maintains breed standards for all its 341 recognized breeds. It does not operate a registry but accepts pedigrees for show purposes from the registries of its member countries. FCI has a reciprocity agreement with the AKC, the Canadian Kennel Club, and The Kennel Club (of England), which are not members. So in reality the AKC already is the official registry to the FCI for the US.

If they didn't have this agreement every dog that has been imported would never have been AKC registered.

I would be curious to know you opinion on how the AKC, as a whole, set the atmosphere in which the decline of many a working breeds took place?

you wrote:

I'm with you, I say we support UKC. AKC needs to play around the office with matches and gasoline, LOL! As for the question Tracy posed is this a joke? Just look at their "approved breeds list" They're already starting off on the wrong foot Plus, you know they only went through with this because their competition UKC approved and started working trials. I think they felt pressured to get into this, whereas I truely feel UKC, aside from the business aspect really wanted to venture this way. AKC is just trying to play catch up.


>Chris,

> With all respect to the UKC SDA program. What is it?
>Schutzhund like exercises in a bite jacket? The WDS program
>is Schutzhund. A sport recognized world wide. Hopefully
>there will be a AKC WDS team at the FCI World Championship
>in the future. Like it or not the AKC is the big player in
>the United States dog world. The fact that they have "seen
>the light" and are recognizing the working breeds is
>great news. Past history, is just that.
>I'm not ready to rip up my DVG or UScA scorebooks and
>membership cards, but I'm sure going to take the >opportunity to promote Working Dogs and have another venue
>to trial and title my dogs.

 Quote:

I'm with you, I say we support UKC. AKC needs to play around the office with matches and gasoline, LOL! As for the question Tracy posed is this a joke? Just look at their "approved breeds list" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> They're already starting off on the wrong foot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Plus, you know they only went through with this because their competition UKC approved and started working trials. I think they felt pressured to get into this, whereas I truely feel UKC, aside from the business aspect really wanted to venture this way. AKC is just trying to play catch up.

Exactly how did the start off on the wrong foot with the chosen breeds?

As for playing catch-up the clubs within the AKC have been developing the WD program for probably over 4 years. The program was made know to the public over 3 years ago. The UKC didn't publish anything official until Sept.01,2004 over a year and a half after the AKC made it know.

Micheal,
I want to say you have a great vision with your statement:
"I would like to see dogsport people take over the AKC."

One problem with that it will never happen. true working folks don't run the AKC and never will. The best thing for real working dogs is for the AKC is to die a slow death, LOL! Of course this is all JMO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

As for Keith with all the dates, of when AKC has been "exploring" this, they finally took heed to crap or get off the pot, and was pushed into this and no one will get me to believe differently. UKC's program maybe a schutzhund type thing in a suit, but it's a program created out of the passion for working dogs as UKC has been demonstrating, unlike AKC, who had to have 3 arms and a neck broken to finally agree to this after "ALL THESE YEARS"!

IMO any and all testing for breeding requirements is where its at. I never see that happening with AKC. I agree UKC is where its at for beagles, coonhounds, retrievers, pointers, even working dogs. Im preparing for a retrieving event at this time. Tests are to a standard and are challenging at various levels.
In my breed of choice the FCI standards are actually a disqualification by AKC-that of a scharzschimmel or black roan color. The FCI and VDD club is interested in performance and conformation standard. The color issue I truly dont understand, but Ive come to realize that "AKC" registered means nothing except someone paid a fee for a piece of paper that is nothing more than bathroom tissue. There is no work out into that paper sadly. Not bashing but stating fact. I hope one day theyll get it togethert. But more floks are interested in pets than working animals-be it sport, hunting, herding etc. And AKC happily takes a surcharge from every bred animal.

I didn't say they were a member I said they had an agreement and that agreement is as follows:

Federation Cynologique Internationale (FCI) Based in Belgium, FCI licenses international shows in its 72 member countries, including the well-known annual World Show. FCI maintains breed standards for all its 341 recognized breeds. It does not operate a registry but accepts pedigrees for show purposes from the registries of its member countries. FCI has a reciprocity agreement with the AKC, the Canadian Kennel Club, and The Kennel Club (of England), which are not members.

Can you point me in the direction where you found this? I checked the FCI website, and can't find anything about a reciprocity agreement. I did find in their regulations where they have full members, associate members, and contract members though....

So in reality the AKC already is the official registry to the FCI for the US.

I don't think that qualifies as "official". I did agree that FCI is talking with AKC and not anyone else.

If they didn't have this agreement every dog that has been imported would never have been AKC registered.

Well, every dog that has been imported has not been AKC registered. Further, it is well known that AKC, to this point, will register just about any dog, at any time....just about. We however, are talking about the other end of the equation....whether or not the world will recognize what the AKC does (specifically judges, titles, etc).

I stand by my original assertion. AKC wants FCI membership. FCI has told them what must be done to gain that membership. AKC is doing it (slowly).

I would be curious to know you opinion on how the AKC, as a whole, set the atmosphere in which the decline of many a working breeds took place?

Judging. The judges decide what gets put up and what does not. It is the whole beauty contest thing. It has become an end unto itself. AKC has set the framework for this, and completely ignored the working aspect of the breed(s). AKC could have instituted a requirement that in order to be awarded a championship, the dog (if a working breed) must attain a working title.

As it is right now, temperament, stability, ability, etc do not enter the picture as far as AKC championships go. Sure, AKC has developed *some* working competitions, but none are required. Breeders then focus on what will win them championships, which now rests more on a shampooed coat and standing/running a certain way. For most (by no means all) AKC breeders, true working ability (as was originally envisioned) is not even a consideration.

Why? AKC judges put up looks, not ability.

I say the AKC "as a whole" is responsible, because they created the rules, approved the judges, and sanctioned the events where this all takes place.

 Quote:

I would be curious to know you opinion on how the AKC, as a whole, set the atmosphere in which the decline of many a working breeds took place?

Keith,
I understand where you're coming from in regards to the AKC only being a registering body, etc, etc....and I believe the breed clubs are primarily responsible for the decline of their own breeds, but the AKC as an organization is culpable as well b/c it is comprised of the breed clubs.

The American Rottweiler Club:
From the ARC Judging Handbook:
"You will only get an impression of his character in those few minutes you have, but how he presents himself to you in those minutes is also important in determining type."

In the Priority of Breed Type there is no mention of character quality, none...all conformation.

In a comparison of German vs. American types, the take home message is that the ADRK breeding standard emphasizes character and strictness in type more than the ARC/AKC Standard.

The GSDCA isn't much different, just a lot more whining about how the FCI & WUSV should consider AKC standard additions. The DPCA actually has a lot more about character than the others.

The AKC (and it supporters) are more than happy to accept the thanks for anti-BSL lobbying and are gracious enough to give lip service to the utilitarian history of many of our favorite breeds at their biggest shows, but want to avoid addressing the complete disservice they've facilitated & utter failure to perpetuate the very qualities that define their beloved hunting, herding & working breeds.

The reality is that there are so few individuals bred in the historical context of the AKC breed clubs that are actually able to perform the work for which they were bred. Their standards are slanted heavily toward conformation and so many of the performance events are limited in scope and not even required for breed suitablility.

I am hopeful this has a positive effect on the acceptance of SchH & Ringsports in America, just don't expect people to jump on the AKC bandwagon and pat them on the back for their 'stamp of approval' on a program that has been around for close to 100 years.

you write:


"I would like to see dogsport people take over the AKC."

>We should set out goals a little more realisticly. Join
>your AKC breed club (GSDCA DPCA etc.) expose the sport to
>other breed owners. If you have a working breed that is
>not one of the approved four (GSD,Doberman, Rottweiller
>and Bouvier) urge your parent breed club to apply for
>inclusion. Malinois, Giant Schnauzer, Airdales etc.

Micheal,
I want to say you have a great vision with your statement:
"I would like to see dogsport people take over the AKC."

I have, in the past, been accused of being an idealist.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

One problem with that it will never happen. true working folks don't run the AKC and never will.

Never say never. As far as realistic timeframe........could be decades....who knows... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know alot of working competitors are moving to WDA, or doing the dual membership thing. I know one thing....it won't happen if people don't make the effort....and stick with it.

The best thing for real working dogs is for the AKC is to die a slow death, LOL! Of course this is all JMO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The AKC as we know it now will be dead when this transformation is complete (best darth vader voice). That is why there is so much foot dragging going on.

Can you point me in the direction where you found this? I checked the FCI website, and can't find anything about a reciprocity agreement. I did find in their regulations where they have full members, associate members, and contract members though....

This is located on the AKC web-site. I'll go out on a limb here and say if it weren't true the AKC wouldn't have published it.

http://www.akc.org/about/glossary.cfm scroll down to FCI

Judging. The judges decide what gets put up and what does not. It is the whole beauty contest thing. It has become an end unto itself. AKC has set the framework for this, and completely ignored the working aspect of the breed(s). AKC could have instituted a requirement that in order to be awarded a championship, the dog (if a working breed) must attain a working title.

As it is right now, temperament, stability, ability, etc do not enter the picture as far as AKC championships go. Sure, AKC has developed *some* working competitions, but none are required. Breeders then focus on what will win them championships, which now rests more on a shampooed coat and standing/running a certain way. For most (by no means all) AKC breeders, true working ability (as was originally envisioned) is not even a consideration.

Why? AKC judges put up looks, not ability.

I say the AKC "as a whole" is responsible, because they created the rules, approved the judges, and sanctioned the events where this all takes place.

I agree that the AKC doesn't require any working titles to become a Champion of Record. But the the FCI doesn't require a working title to win either for their conformation shows- http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/Show%20Regulations_World_Section_EN.doc