This is exactly why I am posting here. You know how some things are common sense to most but not everyone thinks alike? Our lives with Bruno have been like that. I was trying to stick with no-one interacts with Bruno unless I'm home and completely forgot about the urination thing.

This whole thing with Bruno is a wavering learning experience where many lines cross each other. Circumstances vary at many different times and trying to follow advice is sometimes difficult as I learn or figure out better tactics and some issues happen simultaneously. My wife is even more confused because she's always asking me what she should do and it's hard to describe because of the variants. With that said:

In regards to the crate. When I took Ed's advice a bout 2-3 weeks ago, the first night was just bad. Since that night, no problems. Sometimes he'll growl after he's in, yet another area I'm still trying to figure out. When I let him in from outside he even goes right to the crate in anticipation, this is where he's fed in the evening. When I get home from work he's quite as a church mouse. I let him out for 30 minutes or so, then back in the house on a leash. I crate him to eat, then back out for a drink and back on the leash. Right before bed, 10-15 minutes out back, then back in the crate with a milk bone. In the morning I let him out while I get ready for work. As I'm leaving, back in the crate with a milk-bone until I get home. I don't have a problem with my kids letting him outside during the day for awhile and even back into the crate. The only issues are Ed's advice was no interaction unless I'm home. When he was younger he had many issues with his crate so we stopped using it. He has issues with my kids, only while resting or eating, but who's to say he will not start something with his crate again when I'm not home. I guess it's all about "What are the real risks and which ones are worth taking". Knowing my kids and my dog, I am comfortable they could let him out and crate him with minimal or no issues. They've been successful so far with his growling by telling him to go. It took several times but he listened. I think if they were to throw a treat into the crate he'd go back in without a problem.

Another issue, which really is the heart, is his growling. I've stopped correcting him for it, just 2 days now, so what do you do. I can usually tell what tactics will work based on the situation, our surroundings, whether he's excited or mellow or maybe hasn't eaten in awhile but I don't want to fool myself and ignore the possibility that he's trying to be Alpha. On the other hand I don't want to unitentionally escalate with an inappropriate correction. Man, this is as difficult as raising teenagers. As I am saddled with both, I am up to the task. I know I can do it, just please stick with me.

DZ

i'm not seeing anywhere in your daily schedule with bruno a good, long, hard, fast walk. when does this dog get exercise? when is he given a job to do?

i'm not seeing a benefit here to anyone: the dog is cooped up and neglected most of the time. the kids and wife are afraid and not interested in interacting. and you are gone most of the time.

really, when you stand back and look at this objectively, what kind of life does this dog have? maybe he would be better off with someone who has time for him and who will take him on long hikes and give him something useful to do.

Alice, I completely agree with you. Eric sounds like a he's probably a very decent person with good intentions but as we all know, being a dog owner requires an amount of time each day that no one just HAS. We all have to MAKE the time. Whether you are unwilling or unable to make the time doesn't matter. The end result for the dog who is time/attention-neglected is unsuitable and unfair.

Eric, I have teenagers myself. They both get A's and B's in school, work during the week and every weekend, hang out w/friends and contribute to the work in our home to keep it running. That said, they still have time to participate in the dog's schedule (and do several times a day). Teenagers tend to have a lot of free time even when they work.

Can't you have your teens take turns walking the dog??? Long walks that will take at least 1/2 hour?? Pay them if you have to. My kids don't get an allowance. I feel they are members of the family and should contribute without monetary gain. However, when I ask them to do something out of the ordinary, I offer to pay them, especially if it's something that is distasteful to them (planting bushes). Maybe walking your dog fits that category for your kids? Do you have a treadmill in your house? Can Bruno be taught to use it with your kids supervising him? When it's raining here for far too long, I'm forced to do things with my dog to keep him occupied that is more mental than physical but every little bit helps. I play hide and seek with treats, run him up and down the stairs with me until one of us is exhausted first (it's always me <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, put treats in cardboard boxes and seal it with duct tape and let him tear it open (usually takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes, groom him, run him thru every command he knows, etc. Could your kids do any of these things with him?

Here's Ed's advice and I am trying to stick as close to it as possible. In his video he states an aggressive dog is either on a leash, or if you do not have time, in the crate. "Eric - I would not allow family members to interact with this dog unless I was with the dog. Any signs of aggression would result in a level 10 correction. If there is a concern about handler aggression have the dog wear a muzzle".

As I stated earlier, he gets his time when I get home from work. This is also when I have started with my youngest qoing through obedience ground work with him. I understand the importance of exercise. With my schedule I work 2 days one week and 5 the next week. It's a 2/2/3 schedule in which I get every other weekend off. There are days the only exercise he'll get is chasing after sounds from the woods (right at the back fence) but I'm sure most dogs do not exercise every single day. Criticize if you must but I don't think one day a week without exercise is grounds for re-homing Bruno. On most of my days off I take him to a park for 1-2 hours on the e-collar. On days I work I get home around 6 and still have 2 1/2 hours of daylight to play outside.

If what I'm now seeing with him pans out, he may not be as aggressive as I thought. The last 2 days have been quite peaceful. I may have been the problem with over correction and not reading him properly. Everything I've posted has happened but I may have inadvertently instigated it. Right now we are all in a learing phase to try and understand Bruno. We are also at the start of our re-learning so I will say I am not considering any drastic measures unless they are unavoidable. Should Bruno prove to respond well with recent tactics, I will again try and let my kids take him out for a walk or in the back yard to play when I'm not around (I will have to observe him under their control first and see a pattern without incidents). They have always taken him for walks in the past without any incident but right now I'm going with Ed's advice as stated above.

The only difference between then and now is we made an attempt about 2 months ago to stop his growling and guarding. Certain things like eating in the crate have helped drastically. This is really long so I'm going to stop here.

I like the hide and seek idea. We started tracking at the end of our last training course but I got the training concept. It sort of took a back seat to recent issues but perhaps they could be a part of solving those issues. No, I do not have a treadmill but we were thinking of getting one. Does the dogs nails pre-maturely wear the belt down?

Hey Eric. OK, I'm confused. I thought I read somewhere that your dog was in the crate every day for 12 to 15 hours. But your last description sounds like a pretty normal day getting home at 6 pm, etc. I have the luxury of working full-time from my home and it's been a lifesaver for me with him.

Anyway, I don't blame you for listening to Ed. This forum is good for many things, including ideas from people who have experienced similar issues and have worked it out this way or that. But if aggression was the issue with my dog, I'd be listening to Ed too.

As far as the dog's nails on the treadmill, my dog's nails are pretty short due to his level of activity so it's not been an issue.

Good luck Eric. I'm just curious...would you ever get a chow again?

For me yes! In a heartbeat. We had dogs when we first got married but I was always allergic to their hair or dander. Our youngest was born and also allergic so we gave away our Benji dog and had no dogs since. That was around 1991. We got Pivo (chow) from our neighbors in 2002. We heard chows do not shed so we tried it. I was allergic all over again (still) but we made a comittment. Pivo was the coolest dog in the world. He'd been neglected his whole 8 years and I think was just glad for some attention. All he needed was food and water. He was an outside dog so spent most of the time outside and loved it. We would bring him in throughout the day and during storms but his dog house had automatic heat and AC. I'm kinda handy. We had to put him down in 2004 due to cancer. We had to drain a pint of fluid from his abdomin once a week. After a month and allot of money in testing we decided it was his time. I had such a friend in Bruno I was determined to have the same bond with our next dog but I was hesitant because I would sneeze really hard several times a day but; Pivo made me realize why they are called man's best friend and I didn't want to be without a friend. People will always let you down but not your dog. As it happened I was diagnosed with sleep apnea and given Flonase to clear my nasal passages. This also put an end to my sneezing. So, Bruno was not what we expected. He is allot of work we were'nt used to. I have been the main one driven to make this work. I watched the dominant dog video and breaking up a dog fight. Ed mentions how dumb Alpha rolling the dog is. Well...this was the advice we were given when he first started showing dominance (3 months old) and at the time, Susan was going to school so she was at home allot and the main one with Bruno. As Ed says, Bruno grew to really dislike Susan and this still has not gone away. He grew bigger and she could no longer control him and he pretty much lost respect for her. Now, with us still learning how to react with him, she has not had much consistent success for him to see her as Alpha. All she wanted was a dog to love and cuddle and get love back. What she got was a dominant dog who hates her so understandably she's not to enthused about continuing with him. I really think with some of the tactics we have come to understand, this may change. It will take time though but I can't give up. Bruno and I have had some really good times and he is my new best friend, well, except for Susan.

Yes, I love Chows and with what I now know, think I could prevent some of Bruno's traits if I had it to do all over again.

DZ

eric,
would that more dog owners were as committed to their problem pets as you are. that is admirable.

but sometimes it is also necessary to take a step back and consider if a situation is not healthy for the family overall.

bruno was born with the temperament that he has. in most litters there are puppies that are more dominant, and other pups that are naturally easy-going and submissive. you are a pet owner who is finding out the challenges of owning a dominant dog. bruno will always need special handling and management, very different than your previous chow. it is very unlikely that he will ever be a cuddly, lovable friend to your wife.

your wife is your best friend, is she not?

sometimes what makes the most sense is to recognize that a dog and a family are just not a good fit, and to rehome the dog and try again, this time paying even closer attention to a good match between temperament and family. not all dogs, or even all chows, have bruno's temperament. a different puppy who can give *everyone* in your family love and joy might be a better choice.

i know you don't want to give up on bruno, and i think your efforts with him are admirable. but it does seem to me, as an outside party who is just observing dispassionately, that it might be time to evaluate what life with bruno is likely to look like even when/if he has been rehabilitated.

will he ever be fully reliable with your wife and children? will he ever be the cuddly pet they'd hoped for? and if not, would you still keep him in the family? would that really be what is best for your family and/or for bruno?

just some things to think about.

I agree with Alice -- Chows are frequently "one man dogs" and Bruno will never be the kind of PET your wife & daughters will feel comfortable handling...

He may always be a THREAT to their safety -- Is that how you want to live with your family ???

Certainly NOT all Chows display dominance-aggression & if you do your homework in puppy temperament testing, you can learn to select a SAFE pet Chow right from the litter -- Eric, you asked in a previous post, "Who would WANT Bruno?", but I'll tell you who: a SINGLE guy who's very dog-savvy & has had lots of experience with handler-aggro Chows...

No one is suggesting that you put your dog to sleep, just that you put the welfare of your wife & daughters FIRST -- I believe that you must surely know in your heart what's best for ALL concerned (if you wait until some terrible accident occurs, Bruno will end up being euthanized with no chance for re-homing him).

I decided to scour the Leerburg forum to find some answers and found the "Dominant Dog" section. Actually another poster mentioned it and I started looking for it. I didn't know how many sections this site had. I will re-engage in that section if I can not find what I'm looking for.

In answer to some recent questions, I did not want another dog after Pivo was put down in 2004, Susan and the girls did. I had nothing to do with finding one, Susan did all the research and sort of pushed the issue as I was away allot at night and she liked the idea of a dog for home protection. They were all excited when Bruno was cute, fluffy and harmless....then it got difficult. The girls didn't want the responsibility, started complaining about watching the videos and following the training protocol and I told them if they did not stay involved, I was going to be mad at them if he becomes a problem. Susan also was not into watching the videos and in sorts, ignored the growing problems. Now they want to pet him and play with him and he likes the one who stuck by him through thick and thin, me. Like a said before, I'll let a kid touch the stove. I feel I should not have to give up my dog because they were lazy. (I'm not mad at anyone, just explaining). We were given bad advice (Susan Alpha rolling him) and I feel it's our responsibility to stick with him. If that means I follow Ed's advice for the rest of his life, it may come to that. If Bruno's quality of life suffers, I will consider re-homing him but...so my kids can have a dog they can pet...they had their chance, now they need to live with the results. Sometimes life isn't easy, they chose the easy way out and now it's backfiring. I can handle Bruno, the only reason I'm here is in hopes my entire family can have a relationship with him, basically all this work is for them. I'm not against the idea of keeping a dog that is just mine and stays away from ervyone else within reason. I'm headed to the dominant dog section for some research.