I have gone to watch once. Honestly, I wasn't all that impressed. Still, I only caught one dog working on the bite work. He didn't look all that motivated, he looked hot and tired, lol. Still, what do I know? Maybe they all look like that right away. (no it wasn't a hot day in Arizona, lol) The pres. told me she would give me some advice on early bite work with the pup. Reason I asked the forum is because there is a trainer here samthedogtrainer.com that doesn't approve of any of the schutzhund clubs in the area. He says the only guy to use is some guy name Armin Winkler. Anyhow, I don't know a good schutz club from the Sheik of Istanbul. So I thought asking in this forum I would get some good advice from several different sources. So you say get the 8 wk puppy video? Not the raising a working pup? What about Cesar Melan for basic advice on pack structure and obedience?

 Quote: robbinmann

I have gone to watch once. Honestly, I wasn't all that impressed. Still, I only caught one dog working on the bite work. He didn't look all that motivated, he looked hot and tired, lol. Still, what do I know? Maybe they all look like that right away. (no it wasn't a hot day in Arizona, lol) The pres. told me she would give me some advice on early bite work with the pup. Reason I asked the forum is because there is a trainer here samthedogtrainer.com that doesn't approve of any of the schutzhund clubs in the area. He says the only guy to use is some guy name Armin Winkler. Anyhow, I don't know a good schutz club from the Sheik of Istanbul. So I thought asking in this forum I would get some good advice from several different sources. So you say get the 8 wk puppy video? Not the raising a working pup? What about Cesar Melan for basic advice on pack structure and obedience?

The 8 week to 8 month puppy video is one we own, therefore I am comfortable recommending it. I have not seen the raising a working pup video - but I suspect it's good too, as I believe Ed sells good and consistent products here.

I appreciate many of Cesar Melan's training techniques. But he is NOT training dogs for SchH sport work. His TV program is focused on dealing with all too common pet owner problems. That has immense value too, IMO.

Have you made a decision to follow a training path towards a SchH goal (if that's possible for your new pup - and there are no guarantees...). Or have you made a decision to train your pup for pet obedience? Two different paths...two different decision trees.

If you have only seen one dog do SchH competition style protection (and tracking, and obedience) work, then you need to go watch more of that IMO. When you say you observed one dog doing protection work for SchH, what was the situation? Was this a trial? If so, how did the dog do? If it was training, what sort of feedback did you hear about the dog/handler team and what was the trainer's recommendation going forward? What "didn't impress you?"

Beth

I appreciate many of Cesar Melan's training techniques. But he is NOT training dogs for SchH sport work. His TV program is focused on dealing with all too common pet owner problems. That has immense value too, IMO.

I thought that he also dealth with pack leader stuff?? I wanted to learn more about pack structure and pack leader techniques.

Have you made a decision to follow a training path towards a SchH goal (if that's possible for your new pup - and there are no guarantees...). Or have you made a decision to train your pup for pet obedience? Two different paths...two different decision trees.

I thought that obedience was a major part of Sch. I definitely want to work the dog in obedience and tracking interests me too. The breeder has told me that the pups parents are both very good in their bite work. So I presume that there is room for opportunity when it comes to the protection work also.

If you have only seen one dog do SchH competition style protection (and tracking, and obedience) work, then you need to go watch more of that IMO. When you say you observed one dog doing protection work for SchH, what was the situation? Was this a trial? If so, how did the dog do? If it was training, what sort of feedback did you hear about the dog/handler team and what was the trainer's recommendation going forward? What "didn't impress you?"

I only saw the protection work at a training meet. I have never seen work for tracking or for obedience. The dog I saw doing protection jumped the gun alot, it knew what it was supposed to do but rarely waited to be told. It also didn't want to let go of the sleeve so lot's of times he just took off with it and they had to chase him down to get it back. The pres told me that the guy is very inconsistent with his training and that the dog is mediocre at best. Still, what do I know? I am at a serious disadvantage because I don't know what is expected. I wish there were a video that I could watch that ran through the exercises in Sch and explained what they were and what was expected of the dog.

Where are you located in AZ? Perhaps someone can point you in the right direction. Another piece of advice I always give is if you are checking out a new club, leave the dog at home. I would never work my dog on a helper before evaluating how he handles dogs. It is not difficult for a bad helper to permanently screw up a dog physically and/or mentally.

Hi Robbin,

When you say you were unimpressed by the SchH protection work, what is it you were expecting/hoping to see? SchH is basically a huge obedience test in all phases. First of all there is the obedience phase, but even in tracking it's more about a methodical controlled following of a laid path than it is about getting from Point A to Point B ASAP. This is why when people experienced in tracking discuss tracking, they usually specify sport or SAR style.

Lastly, there is protection. The blind search is about obedience and control. The protection itself is rather "tame" as compared to the various ring sports in terms of the pressure put on the dog and the complexity of the exercises.

SchH is one of those things that's either trained very right or very wrong, and it's hard for a newbie to know the difference upon seeing it. SchH is one of the EASIEST sports to "pattern train" meaning that the handlers won't train a dog outside of the very basics of what is scored on the field. Sometimes if I have asked about a certain exercise from my ring sport experience (i.e. the call off during bitework) I've gotten a really screwed up look and a "why would we train that? It isn't scored in SchH" LOL

SchH dogs properly trained can be some of the most obedient, well-rounded dogs. Improperly trained they pretty well are a mess outside of the patterns of SchH. But that can be said for all sports. But things like Ring, PSA, ASR... These sports are harder to pattern train for.

If what you're after is some serious flash in bitework, high hitting, huge distractions (like water in the face, multiple attackers, complex scenarios) then you might want to look more into PSA and ASR. The obedience in these sports is typically okay (not usually SchH calibre unless the handler has precision as a goal) but the routines themselves are WAY more demanding than SchH (more distractions on the field during obedience, including suited decoys). Basically the dog has to BEHAVE in WAY more complex situations, but the definition of "behave" is a little looser than for SchH. The top level PSA/ASR dogs are very good in their obedience, but you can pass with slightly lesser obedience provided the overall control is there. Anyway, these sports are phenominal if what you're after is a generally well-rounded protection and obedience dog. There is no tracking in either sport.

Any questions, feel free to ask. Many members here do PSA and/or ASR.

Robbin,
that "samthedogtrainer.com" guy most likely doesn't know beans about SchH - if he did, don't you think that he be advertising his titles or accomplishments in that field?
Notice that he mentions that he "trained with Armin Winkler for two years"....odd that in that time he didn't title a dog, don't you think?
Also, it's kinda strange that when you click on his "protection" link that basically he has articles from Mr. Winkler and that you're simply refered to the SchH Village for training.

Not exactly an expert opinion that should prevent you from checking out the local folks, in my book.

Of course if he's just an incredibly humble SchH guru that I've never heard of and has titled a buch of dogs and just doesn't advertise that fact.....my apologies for casting doubts here.

Lol, Will you crack me up!... Okay, to answer the questions as to what didn't impress me. LIke I said the dog kept jumping the gun. He knew the call before it came and always set off before hand. When the guy called him off he took his time standing down. I guess this could all just be a matter of not having enough experience but it seemed the handler had no control over the dog. As far as Sam the dog guy, as I stated earlier since I have no idea as to what to expect to see I wouldn't want to be guilty of judging without knowledge. This is why I asked for some direction in the way of schutz. So, by no means do I take the statement made by said person to be valid or invalid...just a statement made by someone who said he knew one way or another. I would much prefer to come to the forum to get my questions answered by several people, even if the op are different. At least I will have some reference in which to make up my own mind about what I want. As far as PSA/ASR...honestly, I never heard of it before now. So, once again, another opportunity to show my ignorance in the matter, lol!

Were they perhaps working on the dogs training that day? Or were the other people impressed with the dog? If it was early in the dogs training then I wouldn't expect to be impressed. Or perhaps just a new handler with a so-so dog. Could be anythingm just wait till you start out and make mistakes

Like I said before, the president of the club said that the guy didn't work his dog enough. That she had a hard time with him showing up only sometimes and using the proper techniques. I am sure that I will make many, many, many mistakes of my own. I wasn't trying to sound superior in any way. All I was saying was the first time watching wasn't all that impressive. Nothing bad against Shutz or the club or the guy. This is another reason why I would like to see someone who really knows what they are doing in action, that's all. Sheesh!

Have you looked at YouTube for some of the dog-sport videos there? I've seen both competition & training ones, so you can at least get a bit of an idea of what's going on.