I do agree with Alice that if you are worried about your own safety, you should definitely find an expert to work with in person.

Just make sure they know what they're doing... you wouldn't want to end up with 200+ stitches in your face, like the example Ed mentions in the DVD

yuko, it's a bullmastiff/wolfhound cross, not a GSD. prong collars and e-collars are illegal where she lives, is my understanding. she needs professional help. i have a dog like hers, and i know what she's dealing with.

there is no substitute for having a knowledgeable person right there, correcting your mistakes and responding to the realities of that particular dog. the dvd or a book can't cover everything, and every situation. and there is a real potential for her losing control, even if she's been in control up until now.

i only have experience with my one dog that is also a powerhouse who went through a dog aggression period, so i'm not even going to try to tell her what to do, even though what i did worked for me.

i'm telling her to wait because the consequences of doing it wrong can be very serious. i'm not telling her to avoid situations forever, just to wait until she has competent help.

i think you underestimate the power of the dog she owns. and to say that he should be rehomed with someone stronger than the dog makes no sense. there very likely is no one stronger than that dog.

Alice, have you even watched the DVD?
I don't remember Ed saying anywhere that the training is breed or size specific.
Besides, a lot of the training is done with a dominant dog collar, not a prong (for dogs who get overly stimulated by the prong).

Anyway, even if she were to follow your advice and look for "competent help", how is she supposed to find help if she has no way of knowing if the "expert" knows what they're doing?? She's clearly already spent a lot of money and time on these so-called professionals and has had no results. The DVD will educate her, and even if she can't handle the problem herself (it doesn't sound like her dog is so badly out of control anyway), then at least she'll know how to select a good trainer.

Your advice to her is to "find competent help". Isn't that what she's trying to do and has tried to do already??
You don't seem to be answering her question, really...

As I said, Ed covers all options in the DVD - including how to determine which collar to use for correcting, how to stay safe and even how to seek out professional help.

I'm not going to argue with you any further over this Alice. I'm not questioning what you did with your one dog and how it turned out, but there's no way you've had the experience that Ed has had to be arguing against his techniques (espcially without even having watched the DVD).

Please keep in mind that the advice I'm giving here is not "my" advice; I'm simply explaining to her what's in the DVD. By doing this, I'm hoping to give her an idea at least of the philosophy behind the training and see where she's gone wrong until she gets the chance to view the DVD for herself.

She doesn't have to be stronger than her dog to implement these techniques - it's not a wrestling match or anything Not to mention that there are a lot of more subtle and psychological ways (detailed in the video) to maintain good leadership, which she will need in any case.

Watching the DVD will show her if she has the necessary strength/height to use the techniques, and if for whatever reason she can't go through with the methods there (which are pretty straightforward), at least she'll know how to evaluate the competency of any trainers she may consider in the future.

Either way, this DVD will help solve her problem.

yuko, i've read this whole site, and i am in accord with ed's methods.

ed is quite explicit in his instructions, in his written section on dealing with dominant dogs, that a dog that is very large and very strong can be too dangerous to handle with a dominant dog collar. i remember that quite well, because i was considering one for my dog, who is 150 lbs. of solid muscle. it is ed's article that convinced me that that was NOT the way to go with a dog like mine.

my post said nothing for or against the DVD. it merely warned her that corrections with such a dog have their risks in inexperienced hands.

Ok, I see what you're saying.

Yuko- Hehe yeah, a concealed prong IS tempting but the fines are huge ($5,000) and I would likely lose him as well. What you said on the first page is spot on. I failed to protect him and now he has little to no faith in my ability to look after him when he feels threatened. He's never been hurt, but the psychological damage was bad enough. I focus a LOT on working to gain his trust as I think any training done to fix him will be pointless unless he knows he can trust me, and that includes the methods suggested by Ed. I do feel guilty about my mistakes, but at the same time I didn't know any better back then so I try not to beat myself about it as it's not going to help either of us.

He's not actually as big as he could be, only around 40kg or about the same height as a large GSD. I've got about 20kg on him and I'm tall so plenty of leverage But I can handle him no worries as I know his body language well and know if/when he's going to have a problem. I do think I'm in an ideal position to deal with him as he's an only dog and I don't have kids to worry about with him, so IMO rehoming would not be an option if I can't help him. If he became unpredictably aggressive towards me or other people I'd draw the line there and have him put to sleep, but I don't see any reason why that would happen.

I've got a trainer in mind to help me out, but as I said he's in a different state which is a pain in the butt. He comes out my way for seminars and private lessons throughout the year though and I know he's had some brilliant results with dogs like mine so I'll just have to be patient.

Alice - I avoid corrections if he's already "gone off". I see that as a failure on my part to either redirect or correct his initial response so I just break eye contact with the other dog and have him cool down. By that stage there's no way he'd feel any corrections anyway so it's pointless and will likely only serve to make him MORE upset. I do what I can to avoid letting him get to that state though as it's very counterproductive and only reinforces his behaviour. I've accepted that he's likely going to have issues with other dogs for the rest of his life, so it means that any progress we make is really nice It doesn't bug me too much to think that he's not going to be overjoyed about other dogs anyway, my goal is to stop his aggression on the street so he's under less pressure to defend himself and walking him becomes easier. One day I'd like to be able to do some offlead work with him at his obedience school but who knows if that will ever happen.

And he IS a very strong dog, I'd never want to be on the receiving end of his angst, but he's well under control and I'm able to read him very well. He'd never hurt a fly under normal cirsumstances, it's just when he's feeling threatened by another dog that he gets upset. He's walked with a muzzle anyway just in case.



There's actually one thing I would like to know about the idea of a hard correction for this kind of behaviour. I know that there's different causes for aggression and therefore different tactics for handling it. My concern with hard corrections for fear aggression is that, on it's own, it seems to correct the symptom but not the cause of the problem. I mean, you correct because the dog feels threatened but after that they're still going to feel threatened if what they're worried about is still there, they'd just be too scared of a correction to try it again. Is that right or am I interpreting it the wrong way? I can see it working just fine for dominance problems and agree 100% with it, but fear is quite a lot different.

Without evaluating this dog, I'm going to assume that you can judge that what you describe as aggression is true aggression, level 10, no room for small talk aggression. No warning aggression. I'm going to be blunt here, and of course, like any online advice forum, you can choose to ignore my post. I had a dog like this (so dangerous because he never gave a warning bite, he always went for a kill), in fact, I could have written your post 8 years ago to the letter. Unfortunately I had to put my dog down this summer a month before I was due with my first baby. I was able to keep him for 8 years because I lived alone and apprenticed with an excellent trainer who in the end, helped me manage this dog. However, his life was not without incident. There was more than one close call, I was bit, my BF was bit, my other dog almost killed. Over the 8 years we became very attached. Should I have put him down after the first infraction, probably, but I didn't. I think because I didn't know at first he was very dangerous until he got older, and escalated. If I was faced with the same decision today would I put the dog down immediately, yes I would. Your life over the next 10 or so years will not be easy. You will always have to have your guard up with your dog, especially when inviting people over. And you are already seeing that you have to avoid situations with him, this may lead to keeping the dog pretty much inside all the time except when he is muzzled. About the only thing I could do outside with my dog was bike with him. When he was running next to me, he pretty much ignored his triggers, but that was it. He was my demo dog until he was 2, but he became so unpredictable with kids and other dogs, his mind was warped. He was so sharp and fearful. He led a good life once I stopped exposing him to his triggers, but it was a very stressful 8 years for me.
Sorry to say, but you have to consider your life, and the safety of those around you. Its my view now that life is too short to break your back for a dog who in the end might not be able to be saved. There are so many other dogs out there who are not that way who are put down for no reason other than they don't have a home. I learned the hard way, emotionally, this dog, my love, was a true milestone in my personal growth because he helped me make tough choices.
Best wishes to you. Feel free to PM me if you like.
Michelle

Ok what I'm going to say now are "my" thoughts on this,... just so you know, I don't have experience with very aggressive dogs.
Take my advice for what it's worth

This is what I learned from all the reading on this site and the DVD's: the dominance issues would be solved by corrections, but the fear involved should subside once the dog sees that you're confident and in control.
Try to aggressively chase away any approaching dog, even friendly ones. From your dog's point of view, an overly forward friendly dog might seem threatening.
If it's a person and you want to talk to them, correct the dog until it stops its aggression and get it to sit, or better yet, lie down. Don't praise for stopping the aggression; it's inappropriate pack behaviour.

Once you convince your dog that you will not tolerate him to act aggressively and that you will quickly and effectively deal with any threats, he will relax and not worry about defending himself.
He may always be dog-aggressive, which is why you should avoid dog parks and unknown dogs, but at least when he's by your side, he should eventually learn to look to you when a strange dog approaches. You'll certainly have a much easier time controlling him.

So even if he's acting out of fear (understandable after what he's gone through), correct him, get his attention onto you and immediately chase the other dog away (tie your dog to a tree if you have to so he doesn't run past you to attack the other dog).
Don't praise him; just act as calmly as you can and walk on without making a fuss.
If he starts looking intently at another dog in the distance, again, correct him until he looks to you. Then, no praise, just walk on. If you're worried that he's getting upset from all the corrections, throw in some motivational obedience work when he's being good and play with him.
That's the best way to "comfort" him.

Unfortunately I made the same mistakes with my female shepherd back when she was young. I was told by the local obedience trainers that I had to socialize my pup with other dogs at the park. I was told to let her run with the dogs and let them work it out amongst themselves.

Inevitably, she had bad experiences (even attacked by a pitbull once; the dog was out of control and wouldn't listen to its owner. It only stopped the attack when I stepped in and lifted it off the ground by its collar and it started choking. Can you believe it? The owner standing there not doing anything while watching a 12-year-old child (me) trying to stop an attack from her aggressive pitbull!). My dog ended up with a bite wound on her ear...
Luckily my female was never badly hurt (physically) during these encounters, but she was bullied a number of times by packs of dogs that would pick on her.

She eventually became so fearful that she would refuse to enter parks if there were many dogs there. If we kept going without her, she would circle very far around the dogs and meet up with us after we'd passed them. All the "trainers" said to us was that some dogs are more "naturally submissive and fearful" than others and that this was a temperament flaw often seen in shepherds.
(The more I think about all the advice I received back then from so-called professionals, the more I want revenge!!! I was only 11 years old when I got my female; my critical thinking abilities weren't developed yet and I believed everything they told me.)

Anyway, as a result she developed aggression issues with dogs. She takes it upon herself to charge at them and will pin them to the ground, snarling.

After trying out Ed's methods she's improved significantly. She no longer seems worried about meeting new dogs and has stopped being aggressive with them. Now if she doesn't like a particular dog approaching her, she'll look over to me and watch in satisfaction as I drive the dog away.
It usually doesn't take much to drive away the average pet dog; just stand between your dog and the other one, stare at it and speak in a deep serious voice.
Heck, in many cases you'll get the strange dog to obey your commands when it will gleefully ignore its own owner!
(A lot of weak pack leaders amongst the local dog owners where I live )

It was the easiest thing I ever did and certainly the most effective way to get my female shepherd to relax on walks. As for my puppy, he automatically looks to me when we're approached by strange dogs. He doesn't get nervous at all, even when we walk by aggressive dogs that are barking and growling at us. He knows I'll protect the "pack" and he feels secure.

As I said, no matter how much you read on the site, the dominant dog DVD will give a lot more insight on the matter and shows you the right and wrong ways to give corrections.
You'll be surprised at just how much insight Ed has on the matter and how much it all makes sense.
You sound perfectly capable of dealing with your dog, and in fact you already seem to be doing a pretty good job With the extra information I'm sure you'll be able to fix this.

(Sorry for writing a book; I'm getting all worked up and angry when thinking back to what we put our poor female through over the years. I'm done venting )

Sorry to hear about your dog Michelle, it must have been a very hard desicion to make after all that time and hard work.

I completely understand what you're saying and I have considered that in the future I may have to consider having him put to sleep, especially if he ever got worse. I have a feeling though that we're through the worst of it as he's been making a few improvements lately, mostly because I'm winning his trust more every day. Once upon a time I could never get him to look at me when we were in the street, now he glances up all the time and is so much more responsive than he used to be. I love it when I see his big brown eyes glance up

So as is stands we're coping really well. Apart from being warey around strangers, he's never had problems with people, in fact he's one of the most tolerant dogs I've ever come across as far as people are concerned. The vet's poked and prodded sore paws before without an issue and my dog worships the ground he walks on. Of course common sense is followed and god help anyone who deliberately teases or upset him! There are rules that guests have to follow, but they'd be the same for a dog that wasn't dog aggressive anyway. Strangers are instructed to ignore him until I say so and once he's had his sniff to sum them up he thinks they're wonderful and will lap up as much attention as he can get from them.

The biggest challenge I think we'll face is if I need to introduce another dog into his life (not gonna happen for a loooong time though). Provided it's not another dominant male I think it would be possible as long as it's managed properly.

Yuko that's great how much you were able to turn your dog around! We've got very similar stories it seems and what you said makes a heap of sense. Thanks

Sounds like that DVD is a real winner.