I'm rooting for you too! It's sad to think of such a young pup having such issues. He sounds almost feral.

I have often heard of people that have dogs with similar issues to yours (although never that young!) crating the dog almost constantly with the exception of food, water, bathroom breaks. I believe Ed mentions it somewhere in his articles...I'll try to find it for you. I think even the good ol' Cesar Milan recommends this, too. Not indefinately or anything, but for a week or two.

The idea is that the dog can get his bearings without being overly stimulated or forced into too much interaction too soon...and the theory goes that it's a good, natural, safe place for a nervous or fearful dog. He can check things out and get to know people and sounds and scents and activities without being forced to interact with them. He also gets the idea that all good things come from you.

My disclaimer is that I have never been in a situaion where I had to do this or had any client have a puppy who did what you describe, so I'm a little fuzzy on the details.

I'll try to find Ed's article where he referenced this approach and send you the link.

Hang in there!

I don't really have any contribution except to tell you that I have sympathy for you. Our 8 month old Shih Tzu has been aggressive from day one. This little 4 lb. ball of fluff was drawing blood and growling and couldn't be distracted with any toy from your hands or feet. I read about the scruff-shaking and I was afraid to use it at first. But the behavior continued and I'll be darned if the little booger didn't turn his head wildly from side to side, trying to bite my hand as I was shaking.

I eventually got a prong collar when he was about two months old and it seems to help some. I have never, ever seen my dog cower, whimper or even tuck his tail. I have never been able to correct him so hard that he wouldn't play. There have been a couple of times when he ran out to the end of his leash while he was tethered in the yard and when he'd reach the end he'd flip himself. He'd get up and go right on truckin, not phased at all.

Now, I'm not telling you what to do or not to do, but I am telling you that dogs like yours and mine are different and must be controlled. People will tell you stories about how they started letting their puppy sleep on the bed and eat from the table and they turned out fine. Maybe so, but mine has a very different personality and cannot be allowed to have those freedoms. There is always something in the back of his little mind wanting to lurch out and take control of our pack.

Simon stays in the crate all night, while we're at work and he's only out when I can watch him. If there's not an opportunity to get in trouble then he doesn't have to get a correction. If you let a behavior continue with no correction, that is a form of reinforcement.

I think alot of folks are afraid of not bonding well with their dog by correcting him. Simon loves to play fetch and he is very smart. Training will sometimes snap him out of aggressive behavior. He goes on walks almost every day and gets lots of exercise. We've bonded by those things instead of sharing a bag of potato chips.

Your dog is just a baby, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore this problem. Did I do everything right? Probably not. But my dog is not warped, harmed or unhappy. All the nurses at the vet's office love to see Simon coming because he's never phased by getting a shot, etc. I say all that to say this: All dogs are different. Don't let anyone tell you that just because your puppy is 10-weeks old, or is a toy breed, or is female, etc that he/she is not really being aggressive and it will just go away if you ignore it. I would certainly recommend Ed's 8-weeks to 8 months DVD.

 Quote: Matthew Moore

See I'm not looking for a time frame. I do understand she's a puppy. But I'm hard pressed to be calm and understanding in an instance like tonight when she actually broke skin in my forearm while I was petting her. She doesn't want to play with the ball on a rope, and she approaches all of her toys with this aggression. We do keep her leash on her, but I'm kind of nervous to do a hard yank on her when she's getting on my wife because I'm afraid I'd hurt her neck badly.

No matter what though, taking out my attempts at alpha behavior, she's not yet allowed us to be loving towards her.

It's so strange because I did have a lab shepherd mix pup eight or nine years ago, and when she got aggressive layouts straightened her right up QUICKLY. I never would have thought this pup would present such a challenge to me.

Matthew, I completely understand how you feel. It's extremely difficult to be calm when you're getting slashed by puppy teeth. Both my hands were slashed and cut and bleeding badly and the teeth always seemed to end up on already open wounds. Went through 2 bottles of hydrogen peroxide, 2 bottles of rubbing alcohol and one tube of antibiotic ointment and 2 boxes of bandaids. So I do understand.

I posted once that I wished I had bought Ed Frawley's Dominant Dog DVD much sooner. Now would be a good time for you. Following Carol's and Amber's and the others' suggestions and the DVD is going to make a difference, it truly will.

Do NOT pet your puppy, she doesn't like it. Be more aloof. Again I understand the need we have to be affectionate with our pups, some pups just don't like it. I went from a 11 yr old mellow affectionate GSD to a high energy, high drive, intense, working line 8 week old GSD. I needed to hug him - no go. Needed to pet - no go. None of the normal human behavior with a puppy was tolerated by him, and was met with hard and slashing biting. I was at a loss. BUT I was determined to learn what made him tick and treat him according to his needs and personality. I got some good advice (somewhat like what was given above) and I read Ed's articles on dominant dogs and I got the Dominant/Aggressive Dog DVD.

Be aloof, crate her a lot of the time for a couple of weeks to a month like was posted, feed her by hand, don't try to be affectionate (yet), do those things posted above and she will come around. No rough handling (it DOES make things worse with that type of dog IMO), no gushy handling. If you're determined to keep her, you can make it work. If not and you feel it's best to rehome her, make sure she gets someone who is experienced with aggressive pups and dogs and knows how to handle them in a kind, calm but firm way. There aren't many people out there who know how to do that. You may not find anyone with those qualifications and the pup may end up being severely mistreated by an average dog owner if she's re-homed. She is a challenge, and you have to decide if you're up to that (no one would blame you if you weren't but remember rehoming her may prove fatal to her). She can love you and can come around, but it will take time and work.

I loved Amber's suggestion that the crating helps to keep her from being over-stimulated, etc (read above). I agree she needs this right now.

Thanks all for the comments. I do appreciate it. We're not going to get rid of her. I personally couldn't stomach the thought of taking an abandoned dog and re abandoning her. I'm kind of lucky because I got my BS in psych and spent a lot of my time doing operant behavior training--except it was with rats and birds hahah

No, seriously though. We already are crating her. We have some toys in there and we'll pull them out. I did hand feed her today at lunch time.

It's not a quick fix (only been 2 days since you posted), but how is it going Matthew?

It's good to hear of your sympathy and that you won't get rid of her. She'll learn to love you and trust you given time. Your training may very well help in this!

It's actually getting better. We left one cuddly in in crate for her. We did do some hand feeding, and my wife has been more firm with her on dealing with the biting. I took her to my parents house so she could run around in the back yard, but it's still pretty cold, so only for 10 mins. We're being very controlling about how she's playing with us, etc. Last night she was laying in our laps when we played on the floor, snuggling up. She was still very snappy but we felt this was a good step in the right direction.

Now we just need to get her to sleep more at night! ha! If she can stay in a crate for 5 hours while I'm at work and not pee, why does she have to get up 4 times during the night? Is she training us?

A couple crating techniques since we've talked on this thread. How long should she be in her crate? I get the impression that Leerburg dogs are kept in crates almost always in the very beginning? We're keeping Reagan in her cage and only taking her out to play for 20-40 mins, then caged for an hour or so, then back out again. Is this right? Should we be keeping in her in more/less?

Are you sure it's "real aggression" your seeing? The reason i ask is that a couple we know got there first puppy (Bernese mountain dog) and we kept hearing what a nightmare pup it was, and that it had serious aggression problems and how they were at their wits end with it's vicious biting and a bunch of crap like that. We were prepared to meet this puppy from hell, what a horrible thought! My wife and i finally meet the puppy and it's a nice, normal mouthy puppy, go figure. I told them if they can't handle normal puppy behaviour and really see the puppy as cujo on meth, then they have no business owning a dog and should get a cat. My point is puppies bite. Buy the puppy video and find a good local trainer to help you out. I wouldn't jump on the dominance band wagon just yet, i notice some people put that title on just about every behaviour.........

I agree very much with Al regarding the dominance band wagon. I don't feel it's the reason for every little behavior issue a dog has. Just to clear up any impression I may have given about a dominance issue with Matthew's pup, which I don't believe the pup has, I should have been more specific about why I suggested the Dominant Dog DVD and that is because that DVD has good insight into dogs in general with good "to do" and "not to do" type info. It's the type of info that can be used in different scenarios like biting, even though the dog may not be aggressive or dominant at all, just inexperienced on what is acceptable behavior. It's just good info to have under your belt and thought Matthew could benefit from it.

Matthew, she cuddled already??!! That's so great, even though snappy you're right, it's a very good step.

As far as crating, whatever time frame works for you and the puppy. If she can begin to stay out longer, that's great, but if not and what you're doing now is working for her and helping her to feel safe and establishing the groundwork then just keep doing that. You'll get a good feel for when that should start changing.

Your pup probably doesn't have to actually go potty 4 times a night (does she actually potty when you take her out?), but I wouldn't write that in stone. Maybe she's lonely or fears being alone at night for now (that fear that might hit her from having been left at 8 weeks old). You can probably judge it by how much she actually tinkles when you let her out. If it's just a little, she can probably hold it longer. Try to cut out one or 2 outings during the night. She may just need a little consoling and by that I don't mean to talk with her when she wakes up. What I used to do is just make a clearing noise with my throat so the pup knew I was there. Sounds hokey, but it worked. He'd settle back down. Of course that depends on how close the crate is to your bed. If the crate is in another room, perhaps putting it near your bed at night will help her. If she wakes up she'll hear you breathing and may go back to sleep on her own. Some others may say to not pay any attention and they may be right. I'm a bit of a softy and figured if it worked to settle him, why not.

I'm with the last 2 posters, Al and Sandy, with an 8 WEEK old puppy (in less you have some genetic wackjob puppy that should be put down................................. and this would be the first one I've ever heard of ) I would back of the 'I have an alpha puppy' and instead realize what you really have.

A PUPPY!

Puppies only know one way to PLAY. Only one, single, lone, way.

And it's involving their mouth with those sharp and painful puppy teeth. One of the reasons it best to leave puppies together WITH their mom for 8 to 10 weeks before sending them to their new homes is because mom and the littermates help with the bite inhibition. But they KNOW it's play and are better are getting the message across the the PLAY is fine, but the biting too hard is not.

Think of watching a litter play, they run, bite, tumble, bite, tug, bite bite bite bite bite....................

Does this mean we want them to? Ouch, no. But we DO want them to play. So instead of just yelling and scruffing and dominating these tiny BABIES (cause they are killing us) there is a much better way. And it involves TEACHING THEM A NEW WAY TO PLAY! We want the playing, we want the bonding this creates. But we have to stop them using our body parts.

So an 8 week old puppy needs to start learning to use the toys that are all over the house. I keep the toys everywhere initially so when I get nailed I do NOT move the body part or yell (which is exciting and fun, unless I over yell and become scary) and instead I reach over, get the toy and make THAT become fun. So moving that fast, activating the squeaky, running with it around the house dragging....... I need to be SMART about this rather than just doing the fast and easy yelling thing. I need to redirect and TEACH my puppies a new way to play that is fun and involves me. You know you are doing this right when they start bringing you the toy (and you better play or they'll just get bored and bite you again).

I've found going out and doing as much off leash (in a safe area) exercise. Socialization (with safe healthy dogs and people) and exercise. And me THINKING of ways to keep my dogs happy and entertained mentally and physically so they don't just nail me cause they are tiny bored babies.

I can't say enough, I've never seen an 8 to 10 week puppy with real true aggression problems. But 100% of the puppies the same age can bite and draw blood and drive use nuts. So I'm thinking chances are that's what you have.

Some other good sites to read and get ideas are:

Leerburg Info on puppies and NOT correcting for biting

Puppy biting

Puppy Nipping and Rough Play

Why do puppies bite?

How to Stop Puppy biting

and if you need more about puppies and this painful PLAY biting..... just get back to me!

I continue to appreciate everyone's comments. I'm not a child. Although I'm not a breeder I've been around a lot of dogs/pups. I'm not predisposed to getting freaked out by animals, but I think there are definite differences between what we establish as play biting (which she does do) and snapping and biting my face (last night) my Achilles (two nights ago) and throat. When she bites the hand too hard I can yelp and she'll stop and lick my hand, then nibble. But there is nothing to detract her from when she's really going for it. It seems like she really wants to do us harm. Since we've had her it's been really bad sometimes. These past couple of days she's been a lot better though.

We've had Reagan for 3 weeks now. I fully realize she's a puppy; I don't expect to be able to take her duck hunting. I do, however, expect to not be bit in this manner.