My gsd has gone through Ed's training videos from basic to e-collar and I can say that his e-collar work is imo, fantastic. It is intuitive and the dog understands because it is harmony with the basic training - it's nothing new, simply using an "invisible" leash.

Before I got the e-collar and Ed's DVD, I looked at the various methods, including avoidance training and I opted for Ed's way because it is much more POSITIVE than avoidance. If you want to learn more about avoidance training, go to Lou Castle.com. This is simply my opinion and I am not an expert.

To each there own, I guess.

I use ecollars almost every day, in a variety of situations. I think many times what we really need to know about how and why things work, get lost in the different definitions of training terms.

Joby, you had asked what your dogs motivation was, stim from the collar or the treat. I personally think that if you are using the collar correctly it is more like a nudge (for lack of a better word) to the dog to get moving.

it sounds like you did the recall foundation right, and your dog understands it. I have a dog very much like yours, she likes the pay off but she likes to hunt more so she will ever so non chalantly head in my direction when I recall her. With the collar I can give her a TAP or a NICK and remind her to get her butt over to me when I call. I tap the button multiple times til she gets to me and then it stops. She doesn't act upset or like it hurts, but it's more like an annoying thing to her. If I have to do that once, I usually don't have to use the button again for a long time (weeks), unless there is a huge distraction like a deer or something.

I am not a believer in holding the continuous button down (ala Dobbs), I use an amazingly low level on this very tough dog in a machine gun sort of nick. It's much more effective than continuous for action commands (like recall).

I just re-read some of your post...and even if your dog never had a leash and collar pop, the tapping of the button on nick will make sense to her. why don't you try it? Dogs just seem to get it, I have seen it used on dogs that have never had any pops on a collar of any kind and it just seems to make sense to them.

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Escape training is the most effective way

- it all depends on what you want out of your training. Escape training works but breaks down your relationship with your dog. Your training and relationship will suffer from things like displacement behaviors, lack of motivation (real motivation- don't confuse with avoidance) and deterioration of other behaviors and learning new ones. similar to "learned helplessness".

Did you miss that part when reading about learning theory?

If that's okay with you then, yes, I guess, escape training is the most effective way. I don't think you will be enjoying your hunts as much though (or your dog either). Guess you can just shock her more when she becomes more unreliable due to those methods.

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I have tried what you've suggested - using the clicker for the sits, but you're missing the point: The sit is perfect inside or on dry ground, there is nothing to shape. And outside she really would rather not have the treat than let her butt touch the ground. Yes, it is incredibly important for hunting and for steadiness reasons that her butt is on the ground and does not move. Standards deteriorate quickly and if I accept a hovering sit, then a stand, soon it will be a stand and a step and so on. It is an absolute standard.

You need to maintain ob with shaping exercises that challenge and motivate your dog to improve and perform. Train under the distraction of the mud on her butt. Find a better motivation than a treat- your dog is a hunting dog- use drive. Train, test, proof. Dogs don't generalize.

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The problem with your suggestion - a verbal correction on noncompliance and then stimming her - is that because she won't have been collar conditioned, she is not going to understand where the stim came from. She will think the ground bit her. If she is chasing something and I need to give her a high stim for it to register, she may bolt or react in an unpredictable way, because she has not been taught how to turn the pressure off. She also won't get any faster with her sits, because she won't be trying to avoid anything.

You're not supposed to be stimming her if she is not collar conditioned. If you do she will know that the collar was the correction, not you or something else hurt her like "the ground". When you take the ecollar off, whoops there goes all your training.
It doesn't matter if you collar corrected her before or not. The collar correction is used as an example of how to appropriately time and use the correction. The verbal correction is the warning before the stim. The association to the verbal correction and the stim is made by the dog and eventually the dog will respond to the verbal before the stim & not need a stim- the less you shock the dog the better.

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She also won't get any faster with her sits, because she won't be trying to avoid anything.

That's not the only way to make a dog sit faster. Yes, quick & cheap, but not the best. http://www.leerburg.com/draft.htm
Look up "differential reinforcement"- it's not a "leerburg method".

Did you really train her with positive method in the beginning?(real motivational positive methods. Your methods and understanding of how dogs learn seem so contradicting to your original post about how you've never collar corrected and use treats and positive methods.

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"The reason she is coming is in the method used, not the way your dog was previously trained. There is no motivation involved except relief from her pain. The treat really means nothing to her at that point and it not reinforcing her coming. She is coming to you to make the stim stop. ouch"

But actually it would be great if what you say is the case because it would mean she has learn how to turn the stim off and that the collar conditioning is working.

With all due respect, I don't know how you can say you "don't know a lot about ecollars" and then give me advice on "how your dog will benefit the most from the ecollar"!!

You don't need to know alot about ecollars to give advice on how a dog will learn best and benefit most from a training method used. Ecollars are not a magic collar that makes your dog behave. You still have to know what you are doing before you just start shocking your dog.

No one here uses "Leerburg Methods" There are no such thing. There are methods that work and methods that work better.

You should continue on the track you started on- positive reinforcement. Escape training is not positive reinforcement. It does not work as well as positive methods. "Oh, but it gets the job done quick, right- isn't that what the e-collar is all about?"

How could the way ed's articles teach about e-collar training "not be for you."
Obviously it is, since you have used similar "leerburg" methods in the past.

Cindy E.R. - Thanks, out of all these responses yours is the most helpful. I have thought about the nick nick nick method, in fact I believe Dobbs now advocates this and has gone back against the idea of a continuous stim, but to me it doesn't make that much sense in terms of learning theory. I mean, the dog is either coming or not. If it's coming and coming fast enough, why nick it all the way in? That just seems to punish the thing you want. Maybe I am overlooking something but that's the way it seems to me. But I will give it a try if for some reason what I'm doing now doesn't work.

Alison V - I really don't know where to begin with your post. I wasn't even sure if it was worth my time and effort to respond to it.

"Escape training works but breaks down your relationship with your dog. Your training and relationship will suffer from things like displacement behaviors, lack of motivation (real motivation- don't confuse with avoidance) and deterioration of other behaviors and learning new ones. similar to "learned helplessness""

Actually, it's not similar to learned helplessness at all. Learned helplessness occurs when an animal is shocked without understanding why, over and over again. The animal cannot escape the shock and has no idea how to escape the shock. In the end it just tolerates it and makes no attempt to escape it, even when a way out is presented to it. This is completely different to escape training which works on the principle that there IS a way out for the dog, that the dog learns and knows what it is and can then perform the behaviour to turn the stim off. The dog is in control, it is certainly not learned helplessness.

Many of the top performing gundogs of today are trained using escape training methods and the all time top retriever trainer Mike Lardy uses escape training exclusively. (Using a nick rather than a continuous stim, but still escape training.) Almost every successful Field Trial dog is trained on the Lardy/Carr system. They display no bad relationship with their handler. For me this is quite enough proof that these methods work, they work effectively and they work without detrimental effects on the handler/dog relationship.

"Did you miss that part when reading about learning theory?"

No, but obviously you did because you have classified escape training with learned helplessness when they are mutually exclusive.

"Guess you can just shock her more when she becomes more unreliable due to those methods."

Please, lay off. It may not be your personal choice to use an ecollar and it may not be your personal choice, if you did use one, to use the method I have chosen. However that does not mean you can insult me and suggest I am being abusive towards my dog with the methods I have chosen. I find this allegation personally offensive. I am not ripping into the Leerburg method, why I find it doesn't work, or criticising others who choose to use and believe it works - each to their own. In return I would like a bit of respect and perhaps not to be accused of abusing my dog. I did not join this board to be abused or to be accused of mistreating my dog and I find that very offensive.

"Train under the distraction of the mud on her butt. Find a better motivation than a treat- your dog is a hunting dog- use drive."

Ah, I see - I should be shaping and chucking a bird in the air as a reward, silly me! By the way, I don't know what you mean by "drive" but I think I mentioned I have a gundog here, not a GSD and I'm doing gundog work, not schutzhund. Obviously your experience of this is limited to about the same amount as your experience of ecollars. It is not advisable to play tug with gundogs unless you want your game returned to you in several pieces. Gundog trainers unanimously advocate not playing tug.

"You're not supposed to be stimming her if she is not collar conditioned."

Ahhhh, I see. And, pray tell, how do you collar condition her if you don't....STIM HER!? Of course collar conditioning itself involves stimming her - that's what it is!

"If you do she will know that the collar was the correction, not you or something else hurt her like "the ground". When you take the ecollar off, whoops there goes all your training."

No actually, not if the dog has worn the collar routinely for at least 2 weeks prior to it being used, as mine has. Not if you put it on and take it off before and after each training session, whether or not you use it. Just like all the successful FTers do, just like them.

"Look up "differential reinforcement"- it's not a "leerburg method"."

Thanks but I already have an Advanced Diploma in Canine Training and Behaviour and I already know that stuff.

"Did you really train her with positive method in the beginning?"

Er, yes, just like I said.

"Your methods and understanding of how dogs learn seem so contradicting to your original post about how you've never collar corrected and use treats and positive methods."

In what way?? I previously never corrected. I have a few niggling behaviour problems I would like to fix with the collar. I am now using the collar for those 2 behaviours.

"Ecollars are not a magic collar that makes your dog behave. You still have to know what you are doing before you just start shocking your dog"

Ah I see, so perhaps reading and watching videos of Lardy, reading Evan Graham's SmartWorks book, Dobbs' TT book, perhaps I just don't know what I'm doing. Silly me, I have just strapped an ecollar on my dog and started shocking her with absolutely no plan or thought for what I was doing.

"You should continue on the track you started on- positive reinforcement. Escape training is not positive reinforcement. It does not work as well as positive methods."

You know, I'm kind of bored by this now. If you don't have a hunting dog you really don't know what I'm talking about. There is no other dog sport which involves such high level distractions as hunting with a hunting dog. There is no other sport where the dog is routinely 300-500 metres away from you, outside of your reach in any physical way, and in an environment which is incredibly rewarding, surrounded by many different game species which can appear at any moment in a million different ways. And not forgetting that the breed of dog has been bred to find game extremely rewarding.

I'm sorry but I have tried the positive only method for 2.5 years and it is not 100% reliable. Using the ecollar is not a decision I made lightly without considerable thought and reflection on my part, considerable reading and video watching beforehand. I am not converting to "ecollar only" and becoming a "punishment only" trainer, I am using the ecollar for 2 control behaviours which need to be 100% reliable or as close to, at a distance. I am still using treats and rewards when these behaviours are performed correctly and for all other behaviours. My training is still 80% positive, overall. When my dog has been collar conditioned the number of corrections she will receive is very minimal and will be far outweighed by the rewards.

I'm sorry to say that I won't be coming back to this board again. I have not received the response I thought I would here. I didn't expect everything I said I did with the ecollar to be received positively, my opening post makes that quite clear. I am not someone who wants to hear only nice feedback. But I did expect a degree of support and if there was criticism, for it to be constructive. Instead I've been accused of abusing my dog, I've had people make assumptions about me and my methods which are untrue and unfounded and all this from someone who claimed in her first post not to know much about the ecollar.

I don't think I would trust a doctor who wasn't a specialist on my condition and I certainly won't take ecollar advice from someone who admits to not knowing much about them.

Goodbye, I won't be back.

I see that I am the only one who has offended you with my advice and mild sarcasm. There's no need to make dog training advice personal and you seemed to expect people to be unaccepting of your methods in the first place. You are asking question that do not coincide with your supposed knowledge of methods that could solve them.
I do think my criticism was constructive in offering new ways to try things and suggesting open-mindedness to the pitfalls of methods people have found to be less effective than others. Some posts sound brash here, as well as yours. Sorry if this offended you.
No one said you abused your dogs. Most people on this forum, I have found, agree that the escape methods include alot of punishment and harsh reinforcement. Some people use other similar methods when they find out it can work- just trying to prevent this. I'm not the only one recommending you don't use escape training. There were other posts.
If hunting dogs are so different, then why did you come to a working dog forum that specializes in gsd and protection sports to ask question that you seem to be an expert about?
I definitely don't know as much about them as you do, but I did try to help from a behavior training standpoint. It's your own loss for not returning to the forum because of one topic that didn't go your way.

Perhaps an apology is due you, but I'm not sure. I will, however, say I do regret my very quick negative response to your post. However, my first impression of your post was, in essence: "I am familiar with the Leerburg way of e-collar training and I do not agree with it. Tell me something else." Since I was a newbie when I came aboard, the Leerburg way was all I ever learned. I have since read voraciously (and even tried some different methods), but nothing I have read or tried has bettered or even equalled what I have learned here.

And, yes, this is the Leerburg forum, so I was a bit taken aback that you would be adamant about asking for advice about doing something completely different from what a team who has more experience than anyone would suggest.

If your last post would have been your first post, I think we would have all understood a little better where you were coming from.

I'm sorry to see you leave on a bad note, especially if a misunderstanding can be corrected.

"Goodbye, I won't be back."

what a baby

Personally, I think all of you are a bit harsh on Joby. I wasn't offended by his views at all. Ed and I have both discussed this thread and we think some of you posters who ARE NOT experienced ecollar trainers should stand down with your criticism.

He presented them in a way made it clear to me that the training that had been done was well thought out, and he is simply trying to fine tune the training and work through some issues.

I may also NOT agree with some of the views he has posted but he didn't present them in a malicious or trolling manner.

Hunting dogs are different from schutzhund or competition obedience dogs, as stated. It interests me to learn about how to work through the issues, even though I don't hunt with a dog at this time.

And Joby, a friend of mine who is a ecollar trainer told me the reason the tapping on the nick button works is because animals and people learn throught rythym very easily. I just remembered that a few moments ago.

If you decide to stick around, I will be interested to hear how your training goes.

In light of the nick, nick, nick on the button.....would this increase drive therefore speed the dog up? Same as giving several quick pops on the leash to increase drive as opposed to one sharp pop being a correction.

I found this on an old thread, it may be of interest regarding bond;

"Escape training isn't about stimming a dog until you see a change in behavior. As my articles state several things happen at the exact same instant. For example, in teaching the recall, Stim is applied at the same time that the dog is pulled towards the hander. There's no delay, there's no waiting for a behavior. At the most, stim is applied for 1-2 seconds, often it's far less.

I've written an article here, http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showf...rue#Post3190269 That discusses establishing dominance. Part of that talks about establishing the bond between the dog and the handler. Basic OB isn't the only way.

There's a basic difference between what some trainers want. Some want the dog to believe that corrections come from the handler and some want the to dog believe that it came from his own behavior. It's been my experience that some dogs resist corrections that come from their handlers, sometimes violently. There are many handlers and trainers walking around carrying scars from conflicts with their dogs that got physical. Often those handlers and trainers respond with force, sometimes quite a bit of force, helicoptering the dogs, choking them into unconsciousness, hitting, kicking etc., depending on how fierce the dog's resistance was. Using an Ecollar I've never had a dog respond like this. A couple of times I've had dogs nip at their handlers in protest, but I turned down the stim and it never went any further than that. I think that uses of force really negatively impact the bond between the handler and dog. The dog comes to fear, rather than to respect and trust the handler. Using the Ecollar divorces the handler/trainer from the correction and makes it easier for the dog to trust and respect him.

Those who say that Ecollars don't allow for a good bond to be built with the dog because the stim comes from somewhere else rather than the handler, I think, are overlooking what the recall, teaches besides the recall. It teaches the dog that the handler provides comfort. The handler becomes a "safe spot" because moving towards him and staying there, makes the stim stop. Nothing uncomfortable happens there. Usually this is the first behavior that's taught with the Ecollar. I've taught the recall to highly fearful dogs that I thought were going to bite me because they were afraid of the stranger pulling on their leash. After about ten minutes I'm their new best friend? I've done the same with highly aggressive dogs that I thought were going to bite me with identical results. Trust quickly follows as a result of teaching this basic movement.

Of course this safe spot shouldn't be allowed to develop to strongly or to last for too long with dogs that need to go away form their handlers to perform their jobs. This would apply to police service dogs, SAR dogs, agility, SchH etc.

I think that using an Ecollar and convincing a dog that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop, rather than it coming from the handler makes the transition to off leash go faster and easier. As soon as you take off the leash the dog realizes that the handler can no longer correct him. With the Ecollar as soon a the dog is given a command when he's off leash a stim is paired with it so it's confirmed immediately that he's in charge of what's happening to him.

I've trained dogs for many purposes. I've never come across anyone who has a stronger bond with their dog than police officers. They often put their very lives into the paws of their partners, relying on them to keep them safe. If anyone thinks they can build a better bond with another tool or method I welcome them to show me. Not a challenge, I'm just wanting to learn more.
_________________________
Regards, Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA, http://www.loucastle.com "

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