Ed says it best:

"A dog can never be corrected for not "coming" if it does not know the meaning of the word "come." So the first thing that needs to be determined is if she knows the word." Ed Frawley

This dog still seems to be in the learning phase.

Ditto what Judy said.

Michele, I wouldn't use the word "scold" in any case, not in dog training - I know it's tempting sometimes though

According to Ed, the only time you would not correct the dog for not coming is if he doesn't know what "come" means yet.
In that case, you lure him in with treats or toys and maybe help reel him in with a leash (or gentle little pops on the leash to get his attention).

If you're dealing with an older pup that knows the meaning of "come", then you would correct him for ignoring you.

By the way, this will only work if you have the dog under control (LONG LINE or E-COLLAR) at all times!! No dog that's unreliable on the come should ever just be loose where it can choose to ignore you.
If the dog does get loose, DON'T give him the come command. You'd just be teaching him that it's ok to ignore it.

Find a way to catch the dog or to lure him in without giving any obedience commands if he's loose.


As for correcting a pup who knows the command, Ed shows a technique in his obedience DVD where you say "come" and immediately give a pop on the leash.
If you do this often enough, the dog doesn't "think" about the command, it just hears "come" and automatically jumps to it.

For a mature dog that willfully decides to ignore the come (not a young puppy who's just in over its head in distractions), the correction should be very hard for not coming.

Again, this is all from Ed: the dog should be on a prong and long line. When the dog runs off ignoring your come command, you get a hold of the leash and give one HARD jerk after another on it all the way back to where you were when you first gave the command.

These should be real corrections, where you really get your point across to the dog - by the time you get him back to the original spot, he'll probably be upset. That's when you load on the praise.

This can only work through consistency though. You MUST correct the dog every single time he ignores the come command. Give a little pop on the leash about half a second after giving the "come" command, and if that goes ignored... well, it's time to bring on the heavy corrections.

You repeat COME, COME, COME while giving quick strong jerks on the leash, until the dog is all the way back to you.


As for when to go from the reminder pops for a puppy to the strong corrections, that's up to you. Make sure the dog really really knows the command by starting your training in a quiet distraction-free area... they require a lot of repetitions before the training really sinks into their brains

Sometimes a pup or dog may appear to have grasped a command after just a few repetitions, but this is usually not the case... don't be too quick to assume that the dog understands the command (this usually takes at least 20-30 repetitions on a number of days, with perfectly timed praise each time the command is executed).

Just to clarify something here...

The corrections for willfully disobeying the "come" command must be hard. This is one command where we need the dog to be 100% if he ever does get loose because it could be the difference between life and death (running towards traffic for instance).

Now when it comes to other obedience commands, you can tone down the corrections, of course. Again, be very sure that the dog truly understands the command first.

A good way to test the dog is to repeat the command once he's already executed it. Example: tell the dog to sit. When he does sit, tell him "sit" again.
You'd be surprised how many dogs will lie down or stand
That means they haven't completely grasped the command yet... often they're still half-guessing if you haven't done enough repetitions.

I often hear people who train their dogs for one or two sessions and announce that the new commands are solid.
I ask them to try quick rapid-fire commands (sit, down, sit, stand, down, come, down etc.) just to watch the whole thing fall apart.

In such a case, it wouldn't be fair to the dog to start correcting it for mistakes yet.

As Michele said, be sure the dog isn't still in the learning phase before you start correcting it for not coming.

And of course, TONS and TONS of praise for coming!! Even if you had to jerk the (trained!) dog's head off to get him to come when he didn't want to... once he gets to you, PRAISE.

Good luck!

 Quote: michele mcatee

Ed says it best:

"A dog can never be corrected for not "coming" if it does not know the meaning of the word "come." So the first thing that needs to be determined is if she knows the word." Ed Frawley

This dog still seems to be in the learning phase.

Absolutely agreed that the first thing is to determine if he understands the command. No question there.

But the way I read the OP's first post, it sure sounds like the dog understands:

..."goes to obedience three times a week he works on lead and off and does all he is required to do he is very good at the recall and comes in very fast.but when he is allowed to be free he does not come when called Tom"

This sounds, to me, like the dog understands but is choosing not to follow the command when offleash. I certainly could be wrong. I'm not a trainer. Just didn't want the OP confused. I'm a novice and I'm very easily confused !

To the OP, do you believe, or does your trainer believe this dog is proofed on recall (including under distraction--outside away from class)?

I read your OP and interpreted it as that your dog is good *in class* on and off leash. But the "running free" part, I guessed was out at a park off leash. This, IMO, is a whole 'nother ball game--needs to be trained on a long line.

No matter how many flippin class you are taking, at 9 months of age no commands are secure.it takes a bit of maturety on the dog to be fully secure in his obedience, beside everything else.So many handlers think that because the dog sits, down and come In the house or on a long leash that their dog is secure in obedience at a young age, it's never the case.A very young dog can easily be broken from his exercise.Too many people rush to do off leash and allow way to many mistakes to take place, the handler can't be quick enough to correct his dog from a distance rather it's a short distance or long and the dog learns quickly that he can do what he wants.Not a good thing to start with a young dog.The bottom line is put your dog on a sit, keep him on a long line go about 15 feet and have someone call him to them and see how secure your dog is, then gradually go further and further..See if at 9 months your dog should be off leash, I doubt it very much

 Quote: Angelique Cadogan

No matter how many flippin class you are taking, at 9 months of age no commands are secure.it takes a bit of maturety on the dog to be fully secure in his obedience, beside everything else.So many handlers think that because the dog sits, down and come In the house or on a long leash that their dog is secure in obedience at a young age, it's never the case.A very young dog can easily be broken from his exercise.Too many people rush to do off leash and allow way to many mistakes to take place, the handler can't be quick enough to correct his dog from a distance rather it's a short distance or long and the dog learns quickly that he can do what he wants.Not a good thing to start with a young dog.The bottom line is put your dog on a sit, keep him on a long line go about 15 feet and have someone call him to them and see how secure your dog is, then gradually go further and further..See if at 9 months your dog should be off leash, I doubt it very much

Angelique, were posting to me?

If you were, my posts were referring only to the fact that if the dog understands the command and, if so, yada, yada.

The OP stated they he brings the dog in to obedience classes 3 times a week. I'd be very surprised if the dog didn't at least understand the command, based on OP's first post.

Having said that, I agree with your statements about not being secure at 9 months old -- oh boy do I agree .

Been there, done that .

No I was not replying to you specifically.And yes the 9 month old understand the command but doing them when you want him too is a whole different story, at that age(like our teens) they test you all the time.All I have to say is that at 9 months don't do any off leash until the dog matures and is more secure in his obedience,.JMO

I know it's hard to generalize but, roughly, at what age does a dog reach maturity?

18 mo to 4 years.

My dog matured at 22 mo. It was a very obvious difference.

Edited by Anne Vaini (03/12/2007 08:55 PM)
Edit reason: add comment