The flat collar is not a correction tool. The pops on the leash are merely to get the dogs attention back on you (the most interesting person in the world). The little pops are just stimulation, not corrections.

Regarding not correcting your puppy AT ALL, well I'm not sure if you guys mean this for future working dogs or for pet dogs (nor am I sure how you guys can do it!). In my case (pet dog) I started teaching him the meaning of the word NO when he was about 10 weeks old. I think this is very important.

For example, if I caught my puppy chewing on my sofa I would say NO and carry him to another place. After repeating this 5 times in a 10 minute time frame, I got a newspaper and banged it on my hand and said a loud NO! He learned not to chew on my sofa about 2 weeks later (12 weeks old) and 50 NO's later. Same thing with a fake plant I have.

Another situation that comes to mind is when my pup puts something in his mouth when we're outside. He doesn't eat other dogs stools, but he pretty much wants to eat everything else. If he puts something in his mouth I say NO and gently pop the leash to try to distract him. Sometimes it worked, most times it didn't.

One time we were outside and he was in the "I'm going to put everything I see in my mouth" mood. Well, one of those things was an old bone FULL of red ants. When he was about to grab it I said NO, he ignored me and when he grabbed it I said NO!!, popped the leash (I lost my cool here) and removed the bone from his mouth then slapped him in the butt. His mouth was full of ants.

After that incident, whenever we're outside and he puts something in his mouth I say NO and 80% of the times he drops it (he's 14 weeks old). I say "good boy!" as soon as he drops it, and sometimes he goes right back and picks it up, and I say NO again, and he drops it. In order not to keep on playing that game I grab whatever he's interested in and throw it away.

In order not to make this post too long, I'll omit the explanation of a similar situation with a dead putrid dove full of worms he wanted to eat.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes (IMO) you have to 'correct' your puppy (again I draw the distinction with working vs. pet puppies since I don't know anything about working dogs) for his own good. I don't correct him for pulling on the leash, or jumping on people, but I do correct him if he nips my face, wants to eat something that he shouldn't, is about to pee inside the house, and similar stuff.

Any thoughts?

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Mike, popping a puppy with a flat collar to discourage pulling is what Ed recommends on his puppy DVD.

I would never discourage pulling, I like my dogs to pull. If this is indeed what Ed talks about in the DVD then OK thats his style we shall hopefully agree to disagree. If it is like Michael Reese described as merely a way to attract a pups attention then sure, I do that too, but a puppy will pull if he is worth a damn, so rather than popping the leash every 3 seconds walking down the street I'd rather just let them pull and explore and get their environmental exposure. Honestly, unless its on grass, I wouldn't even walk a puppy, so therefore the need to teach leash manners in a young pup is already eliminated.

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Regarding not correcting your puppy AT ALL, well I'm not sure if you guys mean this for future working dogs or for pet dogs (nor am I sure how you guys can do it!).

I am talking about working dogs, but I would not raise a pet any differently, so I guess it could be considered for both.

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For example, if I caught my puppy chewing on my sofa I would say NO and carry him to another place.

Why did your puppy have the opportunity to chew the sofa in the first place??? Why was he loose inside when you know he has this destructive behavior? Find him something else to do or let him run around outside or keep a leash on him and make walking around the house on a leash a fun thing to do. When you can't do that, put his lil butt in a crate, afterall puppies should sleep all day anyway at that age.

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Another situation that comes to mind is when my pup puts something in his mouth when we're outside.

So take it out of his mouth and move on, thats what puppies do.

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One time we were outside and he was in the "I'm going to put everything I see in my mouth" mood. Well, one of those things was an old bone FULL of red ants. When he was about to grab it I said NO, he ignored me and when he grabbed it I said NO!!, popped the leash (I lost my cool here) and removed the bone from his mouth then slapped him in the butt. His mouth was full of ants.

OK so now you are doing what most people do who expect their puppies to listen. They tell the dog not to do something, the dog is going to ignore you because they have the attention span of, well, an ant. Owner gets pissed off and gradually gets harder and harder on the pup. Afterall, he looks like an adult at 7 months old so he should be treated like one?? If the pup wants to grab everything then stick something he CAN have in his mouth.

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I got a newspaper and banged it on my hand and said a loud NO!

Excellent now he learns that he only has to listen when you yell at him and to associate loud noises with something negative. Keep doing that, in 6 months he will walk away from you when you reach for a newspaper. I've seen it happen with TV remotes too, smack a TV remote on the table everytime you yell at your pup n he will walk away from you everytime you pick up the remote to change channels.

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is about to pee inside the house

Ignore it, if you see him about to do it just say "no" calmly and carry him outside, put him in the grass n leave it at that. Puppies pee alot, there will be accidents. No point in correcting a pup for it because "when ya gotta go ya gotta go", its the owners fault for not learning the pups peeing habbits. Take the pup directly from the crate to outside, then 20 minutes or so of indoor playtime if thats what you wanna do, then back in the crate.

Puppies are only a pain in the ass if you let them be. You can control a pup and solve all these problems with simply being calm, tell the dog "no" in a normal slightly firm voice, then show them what you want them to do. You don't have to make loud noises, bang newspapers, yell at them, scruff them, choke them, put a prong on them, pop their flat collar or any of that stuff. You need to put yourself into a complete mindset of "OK for the next 6-8 months I will be in puppy hell, anything that gets peed on pooped on or destroyed is my fault not the pups".

For most pet people, OK, no big deal, correct the pup, it doesn't matter because you're not trying to create confidence in the pup. Personally, pet or working, I want a confident tough dog that has a strong trusting relationship with me, that doesn't cower when I slam a door or pick up a newspaper or yell at them. I yell at pups when I play with them, never on a correction, because the volume of my voice should not affect their listening and should not make them cower.

Training is literally 100% repetition. If you make a puppy repeat the things you want them to do every single day of his life, he won't know any other way to do it by the time he's 1 year old. Since you guys like Leerburg DVD references, how about the one where he crates the pups everytime they come back in the house after a potty break to teach them to always go straight to their crate? For example if a pup has muddy paws in 1 year, that he doesn't run around the house, but only 1 track to his crate. All it is is simple repetition, the pup knows that every single time he comes back into the house you are gonna put him in the crate, so he does it automatically because its what he knows. If you do not allow a puppy to make mistakes then he will not make a habbit of them.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

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Mike, popping a puppy with a flat collar to discourage pulling is what Ed recommends on his puppy DVD.

I would never discourage pulling, I like my dogs to pull.

I have to chime in here.

First of all, the OP is a PET owner who wants a pup with manners. Let me assure you from all of the many emails we get every day it is much easier for the average pet owner to start when the pup is small and manageable with a small pop than to wait til the dog is dragging them down the street. Like you posted Mike, habits are formed by allowing puppies to repeat behaviors.

Second, if you do like your dogs to pull why would you let them pull on a collar? The neck area is where my prong collar is eventually going to be to fine tune obedience and protection exercises, why would I want to 'desensitize' this part of the dog's body? I now use a harness with my working puppies, for walks if I am going to clip a lead to it. I want my dog to pull for protection and any drive building exercise so the harness makes sense and doesn't interfere with future training plans.

Again, the original poster is a pet owner who has no experience raising puppies so I would prefer to see folks like this getting some semblance of control now, by using redirection of attention and markers for the proper behavior. No where have I seen or heard pops given every 3 seconds recommended? Good manners may also save puppies from ending up being bounced from home to home.

The people I give advice to about training their PETS would be shocked to see how my own dogs are raised, it's not even close to what the average person who wants a low drive well behaved family dog should do.

Just another opinion!

I agree with Mike 100%. If my pup is chewing on something he's not supposed to be chewing on, it's my fault, not his. Richard, many of the things you mention are things the pup will grow out of on his own. They really will do just fine without all this discipline!

Hi Cindy, I think the harness idea is a good one. I use them on pups. I think some people use the word 'No' so much the dog starts to become desensitized to it (nagging). With the little ones, I feel like it's my job to keep them out of trouble!

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Second, if you do like your dogs to pull why would you let them pull on a collar? The neck area is where my prong collar is eventually going to be to fine tune obedience and protection exercises, why would I want to 'desensitize' this part of the dog's body?

Why do you want sensitivity in the dogs neck?? What do you do when you do bitework on a prong and the dog shuts down because he's too sensitive and thinks its a correction?

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No where have I seen or heard pops given every 3 seconds recommended?

That wasnt reccomended but it is what will happen, I guarantee it. Even the poster above commented on losing his cool when his pup didn't listen (and I appreciate his honesty, most people won't admit that they lost it with their pup). What do you think happens when someone is told "pop the flat collar on a pup for pulling on the leash" when they have a stubborn pup that doesn't respond to a light pop? To get attention, OK sure. If you're standing somewhere talking to someone n your pup is pulling you over, then ok I can see popping the leash to regain focus from the dog so they stop goofing off. But the poster that brought it up made it sound as a way to correct the dog for pulling while walking, and if that's the case then I just have to disagree with it. A pup that young shouldn't be taking long walks, so therefore he should never be in a situation where its "not ok" to pull until he is at the age where you can use proper corrections anyway.

I guarantee you no dog I spend the time to work in protection is going to shut down because of the collar I use LOL. I don't waste time with a dog I worry about shutting down in bitework.

BUT you are totally missing my point!

By the time I am using a prong in protection or obedience, it's a tool to communicate something to the dog. After retraining a very HARD male GSD that had been pronged and allowed to pull for 3 years before we got him, I found there was nothing left. He was deadened to anything on his neck.

This is very much what happens to pet owners who don't ask the dog to keep slack in the lead from a young age. Why make things harder than they have to be? Teach the puppy with marker training to keep slack, it's so simple even I can do it!

There is more than one way to get from point A to point B in dog training. I will wager that I have made more mistakes than you have, due to the amount of time and number of dogs I have worked and puppies I have raised over the last 25 years! I am merely stating my opinion of how I find it easiest for PET owners as well as for my working dogs.

If people don't want to take advantage of my sharing of the dumb things I have seen and done, then they don't have to. It doesn't bother me one bit but I do disagree with handing out advice to novice pet owners to just let the pup pull them around. No one is talking about long walks, but leash manners. It has to start somewhere, right?

I am not going to advise a new person not to ask something of their puppy because I think they aren't going to do it right, (which is what you are saying)they have to learn and find their own way with their dog just like we all do.

Bottom line, why let the pup create those habits?

Just to chime in, I let my pup (pet) pull on the leash as a puppy because I thought she was too young to correct, she's almost three now and is still a pain to get to heel. I wish I would have started sooner....

 Quote: Vanessa Dibernar

Just to chime in, I let my pup (pet) pull on the leash as a puppy because I thought she was too young to correct, she's almost three now and is still a pain to get to heel. I wish I would have started sooner....

At what age *did* you start to teach a heel (no matter how informal a heel; I'm talking pet, too)?