Anita, you're awesome! You know that right?

Thanks so much for sharing that - Bernhard Flinks in a nutshell, love it!

One question though (and forgive me if it's really obvious); once you release the ball to give success to the dog, how long do you let him hold it and run around with it before making him "out" it and starting the heel work again?

I'm still new to the whole calm grip training so I'm sure I have this all confused, but my understanding from watching Bernhard working (in the "Preparing your dog for the helper" DVD with Bernhard Flinks) is that you shouldn't "out" a dog (especially a young dog) too often when it comes to you or you will turn on his nerves and this will cause him to mouth when he's near the handler.

I now use the ball-on-a-string hidden under my arm or in my jacket as the reward when heeling with my dog (13 months) and we're having great success with this - my dog heels while watching me regardless of whether or not he can see the reward. However I initially taught him the heel using food.
I remember Tom Rose saying (in Ed's heeling DVD) that he prefers starting out with food because the reward doesn't "interrupt" the training session. You can just pop out the food reward, dog swallows it, and you can get right back to the training.
Once your dog knows the heel and you can do 30+ steps before dropping the ball, you would no longer have the issue of your training being interrupted (when using a ball instead of food).

I imagine that if you're still in the early stages of dropping the ball at every 2 steps of heeling, it would mean a lot of interruptions while the dog runs around with the ball and you would end up losing the "flow" of training the exercise.
How did Bernhard go about this?

Again, sorry if this is a dumb & dumber question - please humour me

(And sorry for the lack of clarity in my explanation... I tried, but I confuse myself sometimes )

I'm not usually one for gimmicks, but I do love the Gappay handlers' vest with the ball ejection system. It has a ball pocket above the left vest. You can release the ball using your right hand, & the ball drops perfectly. It really helps keep the dog in the right position & not so much forging. The vests are kind of expensive & it doesn't look like it would be difficult to do a homemade job. If I were the least bit handy that's what I would have done.

STUPID STUPID STUPID ME!!!! I just checked Leerburg vests. There are two that are very similar and cost less than the one on the Gappay site. I really like the Belgian vest. It's better because there are different places to drop the ball. I wish I had looked here before I got my Gappay vest. I'm going to order the Belgian vest next month, I've spent my disposable income for May, but June is almost here, I won't have to wait long.

Edited by susan tuck (05/27/2007 12:31 PM)
Edit reason: edited to add 2nd paragraph

 Quote: yuko blum

Anita, you're awesome! You know that right?

Nah -- -- I've just discovered that helping people brings its own rewards. Nothing puts a smile on your face more than putting a smile on someone else's.

 Quote: yuko blum

One question though (and forgive me if it's really obvious); once you release the ball to give success to the dog, how long do you let him hold it and run around with it before making him "out" it and starting the heel work again?

Ooh, now I might have to look around desperately and hope someone with more experience will join in, because I can only tell you how he did it in my case. I'll give it a try, though.

Keep in mind my dog is 17 months and I've been working him on focus / drive / grip for about a year. I spent a lot of time initially with very rare outs, as you said. When I did out him, I tempted him with a second ball. Parek is very possessive (but not, fortunately, aggressive) so it took ages for him to stop mouthing the ball and feel comfortable with the into-my-arms. It's only in the last 2 months that he's matured enough to voluntarily return to me and present the ball for additional play.

There is I think an ideal point to reach before you start training using the ball:

-- The dog outs and knows "out" means get to play again most of the time

-- The dog will sit on command, focus and wait for the ball to drop rather than jump up and try to grab it (yes, I can rest the ball between Parek's eyes and he won't go for it until I release it. I haven't tried picking him up by his hind legs, though :grin

-- The dog thinks getting the ball is more important than anything else in life.

-- The dog will initiate play with you (watch the part in the video carefully where Flinks "asks" Itor if he wants to play)

When your dog is at this point, you don't need a long play session once you've dropped the ball. Once around you in a circle on the long line, then "out", pick up the ball, tempt briefly but don't allow a bite, "Sit", move quickly to side of dog and immediately start the heel while dog is still in high drive. Because the dog trusts you that the game will continue, there's no stress from the out.

Flinks starts teaching with food, too. He starts with puppies as young as 8 weeks, using food to guide them into sit, down, heel, come. He doesn't use a voice command until much, much later, when serious training starts ("I don't want to correct a puppy, and I don't want to give the dog any chance to learn it's okay to sit slowly."), but also said he has no problem with people using the voice commands with puppies - it's just a matter of preference. So by the time you start the heeling in drive, the dog already knows the mechanics. No contradiction with Tom Rose.

Initially yes, there's a lot of interruption for play. But if you've laid the groundwork, you'll quickly progress to making the dog work longer and longer before getting the reward. And that in itself keeps the drive up.

Hope this helps. And again, I hope more experienced trainers will chime in if needed. I really don't want to claim I'm an expert because I've had some degree of success with one dog!

Let me now if I can obfuscate more for you

Anita

The dog must know "out" first. You make play, then make the dog sit, then "out". One thing, after the dog sits, don't hold the string taunt (no counter pulling),keep it loose before you command "out" so the ball is "dead".

Susan, you're right that the dog must know out, and about making the ball dead. But Flinks didn't have me sit my dog before out - he (the dog) simply had to spit it out on the ground immediately on command while circling me. Flinks does demonstrate in the video how to out by taking it from the dog's mouth, but he must not consider that strictly necessary for the heeling work. Does he say that in the video? I haven't seen that part of it in a while, so maybe Flinks has tweaked his technique since then?

Thanks,

Anita

Hi, I think the key is that the dog knows out & the ball must be dead, as these are the things most people miss when first teaching this method. The sitting is a modification taught to me by another great handler/trainer. It's a nice touch because the dog is in high drive, but as soon as he sits, drives are a tad lower, easier for him to "out". Also this is when heeling, not on a long line. So its focus, "fus", drop the ball from vest, play, "sitz", "aus" start all over again. A long timer ago a very wise person taught me to combine various methods according to what works best in a particular situation with a particular dog.

No argument from me, Susan. Flinks also had me sit my dog before heeling, but in my case it was out-sit-heel rather than sit-out-heel. As you say, do what works!

The long line is just there to keep the dog from running off. You let it drag on the ground and only hold it if needed to keep the dog in a circle. My dog now circles me on his own, so I usually don't need to pick it up, unless there's a cute bitch in the next field

 Quote: susan tuck

I'm not usually one for gimmicks, but I do love the Gappay handlers' vest with the ball ejection system...

I've seen those, and they look neat. But here in Florida we only have about 2 months a year where it's cool enough to wear a vest. Heck, most of the time you're lucky if we wear any clothes at all.

Gosh it's awful warm here too, but not humid. I always seem to need big pockets to carry bait/balls/tugs etc., so I just sweat a lot. The Gappay vest is pretty thin, almost like a windbreaker. It looks like the 3 vests offered by Leerburg are nice & thin, too.

Humidity's the thing here. Even a very light windbreaker will have you swimming in sweat in no time. Now if someone was to make them out of mesh, that would really be the bee's knees.