Quote: Aleida Cebreco

At least I now know that he's not some possesed, evil spawn pup, lol

Heh.

Glad you posted. Good information here.

Perhaps I'm from a different planet but does anyone else see Aleida's friend as a victim?

She was obviously not savvy to different dog temperments and drives. That doesn't make her stupid, just uninformed. She saw the elevated prey drive as aggression and when she was nailed really panicked. She was trying to kick to protect herself not hurt the dog.

No one seems upset about the puppy in defense, but the friend in defense is an idiot? Sometimes it is easy to forget that 99.9 percent of the population is not interested or educated in dog behavior. I like to train my dog to that 99.9 percent it makes for a happier existance for all.

Also, I'm sure puppies can go into defense at 7 months and younger, if they feel the need to fight for their life but I don't know of anyone who would advocate the practice because of the negative effect it can have on a still emotionally immature puppy's psyche.

My intent is not to offend anyone, but the way the thread was going disturbed me......but maybe that is because I am on my own planet

That's why people have all advised the op that he should be the one picking up the toys, and he should have the dog under his control. I don't think anyone was suggesting the puppy should work in defense drive.

In no way do I see this post as offensive at all and I see your point.....but......Mmmmmm, No, I do not see the friend as a victim because the friend has probably seen and been around the pup before.

And the friend has a dog themselves so they, above "everyone else" should be willing to learn and educate themselves in dog behavior.

I do not see the gal as an idiot, I do stupid stuff from time to time (even with dogs) but I am not an idiot.

I think that the OP has realized what her dog is capable of and this will not be an issue in the future.
I do not train my dogs to conform to the general uneducated dog public, but rather, I teach people about dog behavior.
This can be done everytime someone walks up and says "Can I pet your dog?" OR to tell someone who just approaches with the obvious intent of petting the dog, "Please leave my dog alone."

I am vigilant about being aware of my surroundings when myself and my dogs are out.....and if I see a potential issue they go back in the vehicle crates or in their kennel runs.

This is the way I look at things though.

 Quote: susan tuck

I don't think anyone was suggesting the puppy should work in defense drive.

I agree and thank goodness for that. I just reread the post, it was Jenni's and on second reading I see she is talking about prey aggression and kicking at her dog not kicking her dog...lol, I was very confused to why she was carrying her chi and kicking her Czech pup. I have to stay off the antihistamines .

Jenni-just to clarify, are you talking about prey?

Susan-I was more concerned with the lack of compassion for the friend. I think our dogs read us so well, that our feeling of, this clown deserves what she gets for acting so stupid, travels right down the leash to the dog and you have an escalating situation on your hands.

 Quote: carol boche

I do not train my dogs to conform to the general uneducated dog public, but rather, I teach people about dog behavior.
This can be done everytime someone walks up and says "Can I pet your dog?" OR to tell someone who just approaches with the obvious intent of petting the dog, "Please leave my dog alone."

I do the same as far as trying to educate people, especially kids about appropriate behavior around dogs. But I think I must be cursed by Murphy's Law because no matter how vigilant I am things happen that aren't ideal and that is when I am happy I've put the extra time in on training to deal with the uneducated. On the other hand it might have nothing to do with training and I might just be blessed with a highly discriminating dog.

 Quote: sheila buckley

Perhaps I'm from a different planet but does anyone else see Aleida's friend as a victim?

No, especially not from a 7 mo old pup trying to defend himself. I'm also thinking the gal's natural instinct would have been to drop the tug if she was so afraid, not swing it around. That would have been my first "survival" instinct. However, I'm sorry she felt the pain of a bite.

 Quote: sheila buckley

... She was trying to kick to protect herself not hurt the dog.

Still can't believe she didn't just drop the damn tug immediately! Her first instinct was to kick the dog, not drop the tug? I'm sure she kicked to protect herself, but am not so sure she wasn't trying to hurt the dog. She was frantic enough to want to hurt the dog since he had nabbed her in the elbow.

 Quote: sheila buckley

No one seems upset about the puppy in defense, but the friend in defense is an idiot? Sometimes it is easy to forget that 99.9 percent of the population is not interested or educated in dog behavior. I like to train my dog to that 99.9 percent it makes for a happier existance for all.

I tend to not be so accommodating to humans. My view is that humans should accommodate the lower species as part of their responsibility of being "on top".

 Quote: sheila buckley

Also, I'm sure puppies can go into defense at 7 months and younger, if they feel the need to fight for their life but I don't know of anyone who would advocate the practice because of the negative effect it can have on a still emotionally immature puppy's psyche.

I'm sorry Sheila, but what about the negative effect for a puppy of 7 months to have to sideswipe a kick that to him came out of nowhere? Hopefully the kick didn't land, but you can't blame the dog for trying to defend himself. We don't have the right to do anything we please with these animals.

Sheila, sorry, I agree with Carol and Susan. while I do hope the bites she took were not severe, I don't feel that the friend was a victim except to her own carelessness. The OP should have picked up the toys, yes, but the friend should not have taken it upon herself to try to pick up/take toys away from a dog other than her own. And then to go spaz-o and start swinging the toy around instead of dropping it...and even worse trying to kick the dog...
If the friend was a child or not a dog owner and didn't know better, I would have more sympathy, but the OP does not say the friend was a child, and the friend owns a dog.

 Quote: sheila buckley

I just reread the post, it was Jenni's and on second reading I see she is talking about prey aggression and kicking at her dog not kicking her dog...lol, I was very confused to why she was carrying her chi and kicking her Czech pup. I have to stay off the antihistamines .

Jenni-just to clarify, are you talking about prey?

I used my 8mo old jumping at me when I am carrying my Chi (which I have to do or he gets tormented horribly by same puppy) as an example of similar behavior that is, IMO, nothing to worry about from these lines in particular. I meant that I will try to use my leg to block him (because is quite determined and quite capable of doing harm, although he is mentally a puppy) and this does zero good. He only gets more hyped up. Soooo, I can imagine that someone intentionally kicking him to hurt him would have an ugly effect, one I imagine would be quite similar to what happened in this case.

Yes, he has very high prey drive-highest of all my dogs by far. Cat killer-to-be kind of prey drive. BUT, it quickly turns into aggression if the tables are turned on him. Make sense now? Just because a dog is initially biting in prey does not mean that they can't become deadly serious in a blink of an eye. Just trying to point out the fact that Aleida's dog is not some horrible evil pup- or maybe they're just BOTH possessed.

Sheila, as far as "traveling down the leash" I agree, but IMO, this situation was not the pup's fault. I am almost always 100% on my dogs' side, and they know it. They are not maniacs who will cause problems with any but the dumbest life forms, so if someone were to have a real issue w/them, they'd most likely deserve it b/c they would've a)done something really stupid b/c my dogs are always confined, b)done something stupid by not heeding my not-so-subtle warning like "if you do that again I won't tell him not to bite you" , or, c) done something really stupid like ignore the warnings from the dog who clearly does not want to be touched/played with/whatever.

I try to keep them out of situations where they're likely to get into trouble, but people amaze me. I would probably have not corrected the dog for this at all, but quietly removed him and crated him. Then I'd tell my friend how lucky she was that he's only 7mos old, and if she keeps behaving like that, she's going to be seriously injured by a dog someday. My dogs trust me to protect them, and IMO, an unfair correction as a result of a stupid human move is not doing my job (not criticizing Aleida at all).

 Quote: jenni williams

Sheila, as far as "traveling down the leash" I agree, but IMO, this situation was not the pup's fault. I am almost always 100% on my dogs' side, and they know it. They are not maniacs who will cause problems with any but the dumbest life forms, so if someone were to have a real issue w/them, they'd most likely deserve it b/c they would've a)done something really stupid b/c my dogs are always confined, b)done something stupid by not heeding my not-so-subtle warning like "if you do that again I won't tell him not to bite you" , or, c) done something really stupid like ignore the warnings from the dog who clearly does not want to be touched/played with/whatever.

Thanks for the explanation. I personally love the little shark babies, especially the boys. Oh joy, your guy will be hitting adolescense soon; has he visited you up the leash yet?

I, too, am usually on the dog's side however the laws are on the dumbest life forms side and I am particularly sensitive to that, due to an incident that occurred with my dog when I was a child. He protected me and ended up being put down.

I was around 10 years old and was playing chinese jump rope with the cracks in the sidewalk in front of my house. Inner city Boston and I think we were the only family with a full vegetable garden in the yard. All our dogs worked, my father is from Ireland, a farmer who loves dogs but never could understand the pet concept. On this particular day my dog Sport was keeping crows and squirrels out of the corn and also was making sure no one cut through the chain link fence in the back (teenagers were trying to make an escape route through our yard for when the police came) The yard was fully encased by a chain link fence, 6 feet at its shortest point.

A neighborhood menace, a 17 year old who was really evil and hated my family, came walking up the street and started to torment my dog kicking the fence, throwing rocks at him, trying to get a rise out of him. My dog was growling and barking but was still on task in the yard. I called for my father and the fool picked me up and hung me upside down, I started to scream and the next thing I knew Sport was over the fence and hit the kid so hard he ended up on the trunk of my father's car. My father came running out and the fatal flaw which cost Sport his life was that he did not release immediately (Sport was a GSD and not protection trained).
My father told me he always blamed himself for Sport not releasing, because he said the dog read his feelings not his command and as he called him, he was thinking "kill the bastard" long history with this particular kid.

I have never seen anyone handle dogs the way my father does. It is amazing to watch. He always says that if you have established a strong relationship with your dog there will be no truer reflection of the person you are. Thus he says staying objective especially in times of stress is essential in keeping your dog safe.

I do try to look at all sides such as how Aleida's friend wasn't really guilty of being anything but being uninformed. I have been doing this with my dogs since I was 10 years old. Don't think I don't hold myself responsible for what happened, I reacted in a way that put my boy into defense. Tough lesson to learn but I hope it has made me a better dog person. It definitely makes me awed by the depth of the relationship we can have with this species.

I think I read something recently about Ed and Cindy taping for a DVD or segement on relationship building. That is something I look forward to seeing.