When our puppy (now 16 weeks old) plays with my son, and to a lesser degree myself, she sometimes gets very mouthy. With my 5 year old she will jump on him and sometimes play bite him, and of course when he reacts by yelling she gets more excited and bites more. I have instructed him to cross his arms and say 'no!' in a firm voice, but she will continue to jump and nip him. In the past when this occured with my son (jumping on him and biting) I gave her the correction that I read about in one of Ed's articles. I grabbed her cheeks and lifted her off the ground and said 'no' in a firm voice. She will eventually submit (averts eyes and licks the air) but when I release her she immediately starts in on me. If I do the correction again (firmer) she will again submit while I am doing it, but will continue to bite when released. I have never been able to give her a correction that will cause her to not want to play, no matter how firm...
I have given up on this correction, because it seems to escalate her biting. I usually end up putting her in her crate to calm her down...
So, my question is, what should I be doing to correct her from jumping on my son? (I do a lot of redirection when she gets mouthy with me, but this doesn't seem to work whe she's focused on my 5 year old)

Can't seem to get back in to edit my post, but I wanted to mention that I do have Ed's Puppy DVD...

Okay, first question. Why on earth are you letting a 5 year old play with a 16 wk old pup? That's inviting disaster in so many ways...

If you simply MUST have this interaction between the child and the dog (bad idea, in my mind, but I'm not in your situation) when the biting starts, that is the end of play. The pup gets separated from the child, and about 2-3 minutes after that, back into the crate. You don't want to ever give the impression that the crate is punishment. The crate is the pup's place to chill out/eat/sleep.

As for administering corrections to a 16 week old puppy... Think of it this way; at 16 wks, your pup has about the cognitive ability as a 4 wk old human child. Corrections do far more harm than good at this point. But again, I'm not in your situation, so... Pups play with their mouths. It's 100% natural and expected. They've no other way to interact with their environment for quite some time; they just don't have the mental ability to. Not that they are stupid (far from it!) Just that they are instinctive creatures. The instinct drives in canids is remarkably strong, and cannot be overcome at that age; not without doing serious damage to the pup.

I know there are many board members with children that will have better advice.

Luck!
-Jim

Hi Lynne,
I looked back at your previous posts to see what kind of puppy Chula is - a bullmastiff mix. You and I are in the same boat! Actually your post from yesterday sounds just like what we went through with our pup Nickie with the playing/nipping/correcting/ignoring us scenario when he was that age!

I am certainly no expert in either puppies or small children, but in my opinion, I wouldn't let the puppy interact with your 5 year old - they are both too young and the puppy has the advantage of those horrible sharp puppy teeth!

We have really had challenges with our pup but now he just turned a year old last month and has also been neutered. He is much better behaved but has taken a ton of patience and attention since we got him at 8 weeks old. He is now 70 lbs and strong as an ox and also very strong willed.

Hopefully the folks on this board who have had experience with puppies interacting with their own small children will be able to give you more concrete advice.

Good luck!

 Quote: Jim Thomas

Okay, first question. Why on earth are you letting a 5 year old play with a 16 wk old pup? That's inviting disaster in so many ways...

They don't have a tremendous amount of interaction, but she is a house dog, so she and my son are in the same room together at times (supervised). I can limit their interaction more, but I wasn't sure if that was the best approach to take. Unless someone has other advice, I will limit their time together until she's older and the fun will be over when she starts to play too roughly...thanks!
Diane, thanks for your input. My pup seems to be pretty strong willed also, but a great pup in many ways. I am learning a lot from this website and can see that she will need to be well trained in order for us all to live together happily!

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

 Quote: Jim Thomas

Okay, first question. Why on earth are you letting a 5 year old play with a 16 wk old pup? That's inviting disaster in so many ways...

They don't have a tremendous amount of interaction, but she is a house dog, so she and my son are in the same room together at times (supervised). I can limit their interaction more, but I wasn't sure if that was the best approach to take. Unless someone has other advice, I will limit their time together until she's older and the fun will be over when she starts to play too roughly...thanks!

Well I went through the same thing with my Malinois with my young boys 4 & 6. I don't know how a Bull Mastiff compares but I don't think you get a more drivey in your face dog than a Mali from working lines so I like yourself had my work cut for me.

One thing that I didn't get a grasp on until my pup was closer to 5-6 mos was the basic ground work.. That meaning controlling everything the pup does. Like keeping her on your side with a lead or in the crate if you can't supervise.

It sounds like you are making the same type of mistakes that I made. i.e. giving the dog free run, believe me it is a disaster waiting to happen or at the very least reinforcing bad behaviour that you will spend months trying to correct. That's just by missing even small parts of the important groundwork. For sure read Ed's article and listen to his podcasts on that subject.

As for limiting your interaction with the pup and your boy ... IMO I really don't think it is an answer ..but ..but more importantly you do need to set ground rules with the boy as well as the pup. That being no rough housing etc .. Give your boy the important job of helping to feed the pup and to walk the pup, make it fun for the both of them. Just eliminate the rough housing if possible. Keep your kids toys away from the pup as mine decided she wanted to claim some of them as her own then that created other problems. Never never let your pup posture over the child ... meaning even something as innocent looking as the dog standing over the Kids or even in close proximity while your son is on the floor watching TV is a big no no, the kid is off limits. Only if it is closely controlled and positive behaviour meaning no prey or dominant type of behaviours from the pup should the kids and the dog interact. The Dog has to know that you and the kids everything down to your belly button lint is its pack leader.

Your pup is 16 mos old it may be to young for a prong but maybe not, I have had no experience with a Mastiff.

I proofed my dog around my kids with along line and a prong. As like I said I waited until my dog was closer to 5-6 mos before really (understanding) enforcing the groundwork rules dues to my own lack of knowledge. Then I had to play a heck of a lot of catch up.

What I would've done differently had I have to do it all over again with a new pup introducing it to my kids.

1. Read and practice Mr Frawley's ground work articles.
2. Keep the pup tied to me in the house and on a long line outside.
3. When in doubt keep the dog in the crate.
4. No high excitement rough housing.
5. Keep all interaction with the kids positive and controlled. Play fetch or other fun kid dog games.
6. Make ground work rules for the kids interaction with the dog based on the dog's ground work rules and enforce them.

I'm sure that I'm missing a pile of stuff but that is the gist of what I had to do to make everybody in the house safe. As long as you treat and train the dog like a dog and keep it simple common sense. It'll work out in your favour.

Geoff, thanks for your practical advice. I will re-read the groundwork article. I have not been keeping her tied to me in the house, but I will start that. She(the pup)definately sees herself as higher up in the pack order than my 5 year old, so I will be working diligently to correct that issue. Thanks again...

Remember your pup is only 16 weeks she is all full of pee and vinager. She is seeing your boy as a littermate and acting accordingly. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is cute puppy behavior, pups and littermates fight for rank from a very young age. I'd say even from a suckling age.

If you think you are seeing the pup rank your son it probably is, trust your instincts and act on it now before the behavior grows into a monster.

This AM I dropped the kids off at school we walked. The dog was walked by the 6 year old with a prong, she now automatically sits when the boy stops now and heels liek a champ withhim too. My boy passed the dog back to me once we got to the school yard entrance. Then we went off to the side and worked on her French Ring routine the positions sit, down, stand 5 feet from the fence with all the school kids playing soccer and tag. The dog is just neutral in spite of all the distractions. It was a fair bit of work but not really hard to mould her behavior looking back at it once rules were enforced.