Hi, David,

This would actually be a new thread (for future reference).

Welcome to the board.

Was this one time only? And no further evidence of any kind of problem? Poop OK? Appetite now good?

sorry for the lack of understanding the forums and threads. I'm very new at this and frankly, the selections are a bit overwelming. I just grabbed the tail end of what looked applicable and held on.

ok, to your questions. appetite is good now, and he's taking both feedings in stride. mornings are a combination of raw ground turkey, egg yoke, plain yogurt, supplements, too numerous to mention, but as suggested by van den heuvel. evenings are the chicken.

we started feeding him upon arrival in the house premade burgers of chicken, lamb, venison or beef. although expediant, they were expensive. a trial of assembling the raw ingrediants proved acceptible in terms of time to prepare and cost. so...


this was the most pronounced episode to date. during the evening in question there were periods of lethargy (lying on his bed and sleeping to the lullaby of stomach noises) spliced in with the typical puppy behavior we associate with normal for this dog.

the poop was a tad runny for a while after, but in now pretty firm and dry. we did not alter the diet. so it's a mystery.

thanks for the response. i really didn't know were to start so as i mentioned i jumped down the closest rabbit hole and here we are.

DF

Are both the noise episodes and the lethargy gone completely? No diarrhea now? He is well hydrated?

Totally aside from his diet.....

Now the diet:

I do not see the raw meaty bones in your list. Supplements "too numerous to mention"?

If the pup is eating muscle meat (ground turkey) and no bones, that's not at all an appropriate diet, and quite bad for a growing pup. (It sounds like you started out with commercial patties, and then switched to homemade food, so I'm thinking you might have forgotten the RMBs.)

Are you giving him the calcium in supplements? If so, in what proportion?

It's possible that you are grinding the turkey WITH bones, in which case I'm in error. :>

OK

the morning meal has cup of ground turkey, usually at least one raw chicken wing drum, and as mentioned a whole egg, table spoon of plain cultured yogurt,finely pureed veggies in a small proportion to overall content, ground egg shell (calcium source) Nupro, vitamin C, cod liver oil, olive oil, flax seed oil, and a joint support supplement i cannot recall the name of.

the raw meaty bones come in the evening dish. we feed non weight bearing bones as presented in chicken wings, backs and breasts. the evening meal percipitated the stomach noise event, so the question of bone size and dog age was first in our minds. we avoid cutting the bones up to prevent him from swallowing whole portions of the food. perferrably he'll chew and enjoy, adding strength to neck and jaw muscles.

we have done a great deal of soul searching for the right combination of things to feed. even seen photos of like preparations on Ed's comments re: raw diet. so he's getting the bones, just once a day.

on hydration, we "free water" (*) him, so if he's thirsty, it's there. no additional lethargy or diarrhea beyond the initial episode. * I think Ed has some issue as to the appropriate nature of this practice.

buy the way, the dog is cage trained. he did destroy his original water cup attached to the cage door, and we're scouting for a durable replacement. otherwise we are careful to keep him supplied with plenty of fresh water.

thanks for the response.

D

OK, I still don't have a really clear picture of the meat-bone ratio, but if you are presenting the dog meals that are modeled after the Leerburg sample menus, then you are fine.

I would probably skip extra egg shell (just using the amount that actually comes on the egg) and rely on the RMBs in the correct amount to supply the calcium. The only reason I say that is because meat "comes with" the right amount of calcium in the bones, and eggs "come with" the right amount in the shell.

Also, dogs need the long-chain Omega 3 EFAs in marine sourses (fish oil). Flax is fine, as long as there is no allergy, but flax in not sufficient for dogs, who cannot transform those short-chain EFAs into EPA and DHA the way humans can (and humans can't do it very well, either).

Also, you need to give vitamin E with ANY oil supplement. The dog's system uses it in the processing (and protection of) the fragile PUFAs in the oil supplements.

But your diet sounds great, as long as the RMBs are in the right amount to pretty much represent the meat-bone ratio of the whole prey bird/animal.

The stomach noises probably wouldn't bother me much, except for the lethargy.

I'm not so much thinking the food, though; lethargy and diarrhea in pups can be a sign of parasites, etc.

But you say that it has not been repeated and he does not have runny diarrhea, right?

hello

thanks for the tips on the amount of calcium per serving. we will provide the shell of same egg applied to the individual serving.

also the vit E may already be a part of the morning meal, but i'll have to check.

ditto on the omega 3's

weighing the right amount of RMB's will be our challenge. we think it's enough. dog's current age to weight ration are appropriate for the diet. we have been in contact with the breeder to confirm this.

the stomach noise was pretty much isolated, at least to the extent that drew our attention, to the one time. puppy has been pretty spry ever since, so we look at it as a once off thing, for now.

no diarrhea per se, but sometimes a bit not so well formed as one would like.

i'll keep you posted.

DF

You could feed a little more unflavored yogurt to increase the probiotics, or you could also feed a probiotic supplement.

I would probably separate the noises and lethargy from the diet (in my mind), though. I'd be watching for any lethargy or dehydration (or diarrhea), but not really connected to the diet.

Diarrhea and noisy digesting could certainly be food-related, but lethargy is a whole 'nother thing and should be watched for. JMO. Ditto any watery diarrhea.

Unless the diet contains fish oil and actual vitamin E capsules, the the chances are you are not giving what I would consider to be sufficient long-chain Omega 3s.

The common sources are fish and fish oil. Modern diets just don't supply the DHA and EPA that used to be stored in the meat and fat of slaughter animals, because grain-fed slaughter animals just don't have that benefit (which range-fed animals did).


I think your feeding plan sounds good. If it needs a little tweaking, you have come to the right place.

The Leerburg sample meal plans (including the salmon oil and Vitamin E) are in accordance in every way with the best of the up-to-date raw-feeding material you will find.

For example, Whole Dog Journal, in their annual best-feeding series of articles this year, starts with raw and cites all the ingredients, in the same proportions, that Leerburg uses. Leerburg came first, but I'm just saying the the most authoritative of the raw feeding instructions, IMO, all feature the basics: The meat and bones replicate as closely as possible the ratio of the whole prey animal; organ meat is fed at about a 5-10% ratio; produce is broken down to be more like what would be eaten when a wild canid devours a whole rabbit, etc.; Omega 3s are supplied in the form of fish oil; extra Vitamin E is required to process the oil supplements. Beyond these basic elements, variety is a very good goal. )

RMBs are the basis of the diet. Of course, I'm talking about actual pieces of the prey animal or bird, and not bones detached from the meat.

Good stuff here:

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/diet2.htm

I want to add that not all breeders are aware yet of the importance of adding long-chain Omega 3s and not relying on flax and other short- and medium-chain EFAs for dogs, because it was only 2005 when Tufts published the research about dogs' inability to convert short-chain Omega 3s to DHA and EPA.