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I just wanted to ask a question to Mike, based on his comment about luc not expressing "aggression" when he reacted to Jennifer's fussing over a sore paw - isn't "pain induced aggression" considered a proper form of aggression? I think I saw this on Ed's dominant & aggressive dogs dvd... maybe you were only referring to something like handler aggression or a dominance aggression that could have been directed at Jennifer from a confrontational perspective, rather than a instinctive pain response (and I completely respect your expertise ) but couldn't you describe luc's nipping/biting as an aggressive behavior of sorts?

Didn't see that DVD of Ed's so don't know what he's referring to exactly.

There are many forms of aggression, just live with my female for a day and you'll see a whole range . I always see nipping more as a communication from the dog. There are also different levels of aggression as well as how much tollerence a handler has for these things. I have met some pretty impatient and intollerent handlers that will harshly over-correct a soft dog before the dog even does anything because they THINK the dog is about to bite them, and other people accept that their dog nips at their training vest when they correct too hard or unfairly because they know the dog will never escalate beyond nipping at the training vest. But, you have to know your dog and nobody on a forum can tell you what your dog will do. I know that if I grab any of my dogs by the fur, I will feel teeth pretty quick, but I also know that they won't bite down or ever escalate to an unmanageable level.

If it escalates to snarling and growling and the dog is more serious about keeping you away rather than just reacting to discomfort then sure, I would deal with that differently. But it sounds like the dog is just nipping when his paw is being messed with, which is a trust issue and can be worked around without having to resort to harsh corrections that, as Matthew said, will only add a negative experience to an already negative experience.

Great explanation Mike - thanks! I didn't think this particular incident sounded like all out aggression either, but the conversation got me to thinking about all those "types" and intensity levels of aggression... and getting into the details can be really informative. The part about knowing your own dog and being able to predict his actions, to a large degree, is so key... Jennifer hasn't had luc for very long, so she's still in the bonding and learning stage - it is a bit easier when you have a good handle on what your dog is capable of, most importantly in regards to it's behavior with you (the handler).

I also second the suggestion that Jennifer work on luc's trust and comfort level with her really examining and wrapping his feet - paws can be such a super sensisitive area for most dogs, especially after trauma - but with time it is a relatively easy thing to work on.

Good luck Jennifer!

~Natalya

thanks everyone!

i've been working on his foot sensitivity - i can pull his nails, spread his toes, push his toes, his pad, rub his foot, poke his foot, etc....but he does get very upset about the covering.

which if i'd been thinking would've occurred to me b/f i tried icing it. also i think he was a trifle put out b/c i carried him part of the way home to help out his foot (i felt bad w/him limping!) and while he's very polite about that i don't think he likes it. i didn't carry him far b/c of his size and all, but still. if dogs can be embarrassed, carrying him embarrasses him. so it probably just added to everything.

but i'm sure we'll work it out.

last night i didn't have my regular trainer (who is the owner, he was assessing a dog for either SchH or personal protection....the guy was there during the sport protection class, luc and i were just after....luc's always so curious what's going on - he can't see but he can hear all the bite work).

so we had the other trainer, who's more junior. she felt i was being overly female (i.e. emotional) about luc....i don't think i was with respect to this particular incident, but i dunno....

she actually suggested - and i think i'm going to ignore this piece of advice, unless you all think it's really genius - she suggested i do something i know will provoke aggression from luc and then either scruff shake - but really take him, like pile on him and force him down, be really aggressive myself - or with a pull tab sort of throw him sideways so he has a second to reconsider his behaviour.

i know they both feel luc isn't actually that shy of a dog and since i'm at about 3.5 months w/luc, his personality is coming out more and more and i need to get a handle on it.

....but this is a dog that will get up off of HIS dog bed and even leave the room if my geriatric tripod no teeth cat even LOOKS at him. people don't believe he's a GSD b/c he's 'too nice'. he visited a retirement home and behaved beautifully with a bunch of strangers getting excited over him. we've had the opportunity to test (accidentally, but i was pleased) situations where in the past he would have been territorially aggressive (move to end of leash, growl/bark, alert aggressive position) in the park when he was doing a down/stay and i was away from him - dropped leash - and a man entered and walked behind me relatively late at night. luc became extremely alert and held his down. so - i mean, maybe yeah - he has his moments where he's aggressive (which the trainer saw the incident as) or communicating unfortunately, depending how you look at it - but i do a lot of NILIF and work w/him already, a lot of the stuff in groundwork, and he's doing well.

i don't feel like i need to essentially challenge my dog to a grudge match to prove my dominance/alpha position. i'd rather do it through everyday behaviour. like i said, unless you all think it's a really good idea to try and provoke his aggression....

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

i don't feel like i need to essentially challenge my dog to a grudge match to prove my dominance/alpha position. i'd rather do it through everyday behaviour. like i said, unless you all think it's a really good idea to try and provoke his aggression....

I'm not an expert by any means, but a grudge match (nicely put!) does not sound like a good way to build trust with your dog... I think you have a much better idea of what you need to work on, in a much more subtle way.

I could be wrong...

~Natalya

quite frankly, it feels bullying to me. and i've no huge interest in bullying my dog - being the pack leader, yes, but being a jerk - not as much.

but perhaps that's just me being all female LOL