Quote: Sandy Moore

Rick, I do think it's a phase BUT NOT one that will pass on it's own. To me, it's a dog being bossy, telling you what it wants you to do and you better do it now type mentality. It's probably due to her age. Teenage time. Ask me how I know....hmmmm :smirk:

That's really funny, Sandy!

 Quote: Sandy Moore

This is NOT what I think young puppies are doing (the bossy thing), so for other readers, please don't take it that way. Young puppies are a completely different thing. Rick's dog is however coming of age and pushing a bit, IMO.

I agree that she is pushing it, but how can I correct her if she is in the cage? That is why I was thinking about getting a bark collar, but no one seemed too enthusiastic about that. (At least no one spoke up in favor of the idea...)

Also, if this will not go away on its own, do you have any suggestions other than just ignoring this?

i posted this suggestion on another thread once and kind of started a small debate, but I'll chance it again.

My dog also did this at one time, his barking was slightly different, more frantic sounding even though I knew he didn't have to "go". He was also younger. I also ran out of things to try, and in desperation I quietly, without saying a word, squirted him with a water bottle. I only had to do this about 4-5 times before he gave up and quit the barking. He had no negetive results from this that I can see. It did not effect his confidence or our bond or his liking of water in other situations. If he starts to whine, I can just show him the bottle, and he shuts up. Mean? I don't know, but it worked when nothing else did. I kind of think of it as similar to a remote collar correction, I can correct him from a distance.

You know your dog and only you can decide what is right for her. Good Luck.

 Quote: rick miller

Also, if this will not go away on its own, do you have any suggestions other than just ignoring this?

I will put in my $0.02 worth...

IMO, this type of barking is her having a temper tantrum, testing you. My pup (9 months) started in on it too. Sudden, ballistic barking at the cat (taunting him by sitting out about 15 feet from his crate) or sometimes at people walking by.

I tried corrections and they didn't work, and I thought it quite unfair anyway, since in hindsight I did not truly believe he knew what "quiet" meant...wasn't proofed in various situations involving distractions, etc.

What seems to be working for us is:

1) When in the crate and he starts in on the BARK (loud and obnoxious) he gets a firm "quiet" command and I look at him with a stern glare. If quiet, a treat. Obviously, this is not a primary method because generally, if I'm within a close radius, he will not do the obnoxious bark....so,

on to 2.) Time consuming, not instant results, but IMO, it's truly teaching him...and we are getting results.

2.) When he is out of the crate, giving him a lot of "speak" commands...make him really get it out, a full on bark like he does in the crate. Then treat or toy. He's actually getting quite good at it too. Then I will take him out in the car, a place where he gets quite barky at times. When he is quiet in the car, I say "speak" and he looks at me like "what???" but then complies. THen treat. Then, if he barks on his own accord, I command "quiet". He's quiet, treat. He's starting to get it.

Good luck.

 Quote: michele mcatee

... What seems to be working for us is:

1) When in the crate and he starts in on the BARK (loud and obnoxious) he gets a firm "quiet" command and I look at him with a stern glare. If quiet, a treat. Obviously, this is not a primary method because generally, if I'm within a close radius, he will not do the obnoxious bark....so,

on to 2.) Time consuming, not instant results, but IMO, it's truly teaching him...and we are getting results.

2.) When he is out of the crate, giving him a lot of "speak" commands...make him really get it out, a full on bark like he does in the crate. Then treat or toy. He's actually getting quite good at it too. Then I will take him out in the car, a place where he gets quite barky at times. When he is quiet in the car, I say "speak" and he looks at me like "what???" but then complies. THen treat. Then, if he barks on his own accord, I command "quiet". He's quiet, treat. He's starting to get it.

Good luck.

Me too. I adopted a barkety-bark-bark senior last year, and this was pretty much what I did. (This guy is no longer in a crate, but he was doing it a lot at the window, with every squirrel, bird, and shadow he saw.)

I used to recommend teaching "bark" in order to teach "no bark." I don't any more, because I think that if you want a non-barkety dog, you might as well not teach bark.

Unlike a lot of behaviors, the dog gets a built-in reward from bark, so ignoring it isn't as effective as ignoring other unwanted behaviors in the expectation (usually justified) that unrewarded behaviors will just fall away.

But, like you, I had one who already liked barking. So I did what you're recommending.

This had no effect at all on his warning bark when someone was approaching the gate or the door.

This is all JMO. Not everyone wants exactly what I wanted in a house dog.

Thank you, Michelle. I think I will try to do this with her. I have also tried to correct her when she whines or barks at people, with more anxiety being the result. So, I am wary of usijng the electric collar, as I fear it will cause a perpetual barking machine. I am sure some would argue that the dog will eventually get it with the electric stem, but the method of teaching her "speak" and "quiet" would be more fair and fun. I am willing to give this a bit of time. So, I will work on it for now, and if it doesn't work with her, I will consider a squirt bottle or bark collar. Thanks all!

I too, just rescued a 4yr gsd, and am applying same principal to teach speak and quite with treats. I have had him 4 days now, and so still doing groundwork for pack leadership and bonding, and no hard corrections. We shall see if this works.

BTW I have heard of people squirting water on dogs and cats for training puropses, so there is really no harm in the water bottle imho.

I agree, there is really no "harm" per se at all with a squirty water bottle, however, some dogs, it will only amp them higher and take them to new levels, like

"not only will I bark louder and bigger, I will want to eat that water bottle...AND FURthermore, when you randomly get the windex out to wash windows next week, I will get just as barknutty and want to eat that too..."

He developed this issue over the summer the first time he got shot with a water pistol outside playing. I've been there. I worked through it with treats.

Rick, personally I don't like the squirt bottle. I tried it once many months ago, contrary to my intuition, and sure enough Lear did get amped up (to say the least) and aggressive toward the squirt bottle and it did cause problems whenever I used any squirt bottle to clean around the house. NEVER AGAIN. I also happen to feel it's disrespectful to a dog. That's just my opinion. Not everything that works should be used. I believe the means to the end should be just as carefully considered as the end result itself.

I'll tell you what I did recently when Lear was doing what Bella is doing, and I tried a lot of things, including attaching a long line to him when in the crate with a prong on (when I was home only) and administering a correction with a pop on the line (you may want to try this first as it seemed initially to do some good but only if I was in the same room, otherwise I had to come into the room which made him stop barking so couldn't give a correction). And of course this won't work when you come home since you can't leave a line or prong on her while you're gone.

So...I'm using the e-collar, using it as a bark collar, exactly the way a bark collar would work. He barks, I stim. I can use it from any room. I only use it for barking when he's in the crate. I'm doing this on the advice of a very trusted person.

The first thing that came to mind was whether this would make the crate a unpleasant thing for Lear, but it has not affected him in that way in the least, absolutely no problem in that area. I'd have to say at the point we were at, I didn't really care, it had to stop. It was escalating and so was his attitude toward me when he was barking like that. He started sounding downright ferocious. NO WAY was I going to tolerate that. His liking the crate was not as important as his dominant attitude with me so I happily took that chance.

He doesn't do that barking in the crate anymore. It has also not affected any other time he barks (outside, etc) because I don't use the e-collar at other times. So I feel he has made the association as much with his attitude as with his inappropriate barking in the crate.

If you feel you are ever going to use an e-collar for other training, you might just want to invest in the e-collar now and skip the bark collar. If not, a bark collar would work beautifully.

I just love the quality of the information here !!! WOW AWESOME info, Michele and Sandy.Thanks

 Quote: Sandy Moore

Rick, personally I don't like the squirt bottle. I tried it once many months ago, contrary to my intuition, and sure enough Lear did get amped up (to say the least) and aggressive toward the squirt bottle and it did cause problems whenever I used any squirt bottle to clean around the house. NEVER AGAIN. I also happen to feel it's disrespectful to a dog. That's just my opinion. Not everything that works should be used. I believe the means to the end should be just as carefully considered as the end result itself.

Sandy, I highly respect your opinion, as you know. Thanks for elaborating further on this thread...

 Quote: Sandy Moore

I'll tell you what I did recently when Lear was doing what Bella is doing, and I tried a lot of things, including attaching a long line to him when in the crate with a prong on (when I was home only) and administering a correction with a pop on the line (you may want to try this first as it seemed initially to do some good but only if I was in the same room, otherwise I had to come into the room which made him stop barking so couldn't give a correction). And of course this won't work when you come home since you can't leave a line or prong on her while you're gone.

I thought of trying this myself, but I was afraid she would go nutty and tie herself up with the long line and start giving herself infanate level 10 corrections. Not a good picture. But your reasons are also pretty good. You come back in the room-she's thinking Bark=back in the room, good, then correction, bad. So, to me that isn't very black and white. With the remote collar, you don't come back into view...

 Quote: Sandy Moore

So...I'm using the e-collar, using it as a bark collar, exactly the way a bark collar would work. He barks, I stim. I can use it from any room. I only use it for barking when he's in the crate. I'm doing this on the advice of a very trusted person.

Black and white, and fair IMO.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

The first thing that came to mind was whether this would make the crate a unpleasant thing for Lear, but it has not affected him in that way in the least, absolutely no problem in that area. I'd have to say at the point we were at, I didn't really care, it had to stop. It was escalating and so was his attitude toward me when he was barking like that. He started sounding downright ferocious. NO WAY was I going to tolerate that. His liking the crate was not as important as his dominant attitude with me so I happily took that chance.

This is what I am worried about, but after thinking about it, Bella likes her crate. She never refuses to go in there. What she is doing, IMO is trying to control me...unacceptable.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

He doesn't do that barking in the crate anymore. It has also not affected any other time he barks (outside, etc) because I don't use the e-collar at other times. So I feel he has made the association as much with his attitude as with his inappropriate barking in the crate.

If you feel you are ever going to use an e-collar for other training, you might just want to invest in the e-collar now and skip the bark collar. If not, a bark collar would work beautifully.

Glad to hear it worked for you. I feel I can easily identify the cause for the bark. I know that when I do certain things it triggers it, and it would be very easy to recreate.

Question: Do you stim the dog every time it barks in the crate, or do you only do it when you know the dog is trying to be a butthead? For example, my dog sleeps in the crate; I would like her to be able to bark at someone scratching on the window.

Do you stim for whining or barking only? Or is it the sign of disrespect or the level of disrespect?

Thanks again, Sandy!