Totally agree w/Howard. Caleb is not DA, but is stubborn when p'd off, and I have had to choke him out a few times. Not pretty, and I'm not proud of it, but it's happened. Unless corrected before the idea is fully formed in their evil little minds, a hard prong correction is going to make it worse. Once they're past the point of no return, like in your case, I'd go w/the DD collar. You will have to lift him until he quits. You can't feel sorry for him mid-way, and release him too early. If, on the off chance he bites you, like Howard says, you have to keep at it. I bet he won't, but be careful. Luckily, I trust Caleb, because the times I've wished he was wearing a DD collar, I've had to use my body (picture headlock and lift), and therefore we were cheek to cheek. He's 85-90ish, and I'm only 5'3-4"ish. It is, IMO/IME, the only way to "defuse" a dog in this mindset. Don't let him get away with anything resembling this behavior, or you've set yourself back 10 paces. I had a hell of a time between 18-24mos, but now at just a few weeks shy of 4, we have a good understanding. Good luck.

Amber, great to finally see you around again!!!

Excellent advice from Howard, as usual.
Sounds like you were right about Carbs back in our old PM chats. You thought that he'd grow up and start challenging you more... ahh, those baby days of his are long gone it seems

I'd also think that hanging him with a DD collar would solve your issue pretty quickly. The good news is that having your air supply cut off is a pretty powerful message and it's unlikely that you'll have to repeat it a lot after one good correction.

In fact, if you really get through to him, it'll probably only take you tightening his DD collar the next time for him to remember what comes next and to calm himself down.

I could be wrong of course, but it seems like if he was going to come up the leash at you he would've done so already when you gave him a level 10 prong correction while he was in a frenzy.

Besides, I'm guessing you're not the type to be scared of your own dog I'm sure you'll have this solved in no time.

Aja went through a really weird, really sudden and really intense dog-aggression period when she was around 6 months old.
She did exactly what you described of Carbon's behaviour. She got into a complete frenzy of aggression - snarling, foaming at the mouth, hurling herself towards the other dog - and ignored level 10 prong corrections.

She, like Carbon, has also never had a single bad experience with dogs and was, until then, quite friendly to other dogs. I even let her play with other puppies from time to time and she was always a sweetheart.

I never thought it was even possible for a 6-month-old pup (especially a female) to ignore a level 10 prong correction, but she did. She was a light-weight at the time so I literally jerked her off the ground - all 4 feet - and she didn't let up one bit. If I'd known that was going to happen I would've gotten a DD collar and would've taken her air away.

It was pretty freaky. After 3-4 ignored level 10 corrections, I ended up doing what Jenni did with Caleb. I used my arm to get a strangle-hold on her throat and had to lift her off the ground and carry her off that way (needless to say the other dog owners were astonished at her level of aggression and were completely paralyzed during the whole ordeal).
Aja gave me a couple good bites as I was carrying her off, but she calmed down once I was really cutting off her air.

Fortunately she got over it pretty quickly.

Even though she didn't show it at the time, I think that my corrections did make an impression on her. Now at 8 months I only need to give her a verbal warning, sometimes coupled with a prong correction to get her focus off another dog and back onto me.

Last week we walked by a house where an aggressive lab was lunging at us from his tie-out in the front yard.
At first I walked Aja on the other side of the street - it took a level 7 prong correction for her to break off eye-contact with the snarling lab and to look at me. After that one correction though, she immediately calmed down (her hackles came down and her body posture relaxed noticeably) and was happily trotting along next to me watching my face.

I dropped one food treat after another from my mouth for her to catch and was able to walk within 2 meters of the crazed lab with Aja focused on me and catching the food dropped from my teeth. She looked just like a happy competition heeling dog and was oblivious to the presence of the lab.

It was pretty cool.

Even now she's still dog-friendly when I introduce her to friendly dogs. She just tends to want to take charge of the situation when we walk by an aggressive dog. It was a real challenge to convince her to leave it up to me.

(As for Taro, he's 18 months now and has always allowed/expected me to be in charge - no fuss - since day one, no matter how aggressive the other dog. On occasion it took a verbal reminder or a level 4 prong correction. He's a marshmallow, unlike Carbs )

Good luck! And don't disappear on us again, it's nice to have you back

 Quote: Jenni Williams

If, on the off chance he bites you, like Howard says, you have to keep at it. I bet he won't, but be careful.

When they think the lights are going out forever...even your best friend will kick you in the balls!

Thanks all! More questions to follow, but I have to say...Man, I love this board. And Yuko, I'll try not to disappear again but I seem to remember a long patch of time when there was even a "Where the heck has Yuko been?" post! I had a run of a busy schedule & bad luck combo, but I think I've seen the tail end of it now (fingers crossed!). I"m going to be PMing you soon so I can gush about what a hottie Aja is now! Holy cow! Love those saucy bi-colors!

I have to admit, I was a little sheepish posting about this, as I've given many people advice on DA dogs before, and I've even had them PM me to tell me how well it all worked out! HA! This whole Carbon fiasco has been a reminder for me to stay humble and not take anything for granted. Sheesh, you think you know a dog...

Anyway, Howard, you're right. I really do think the prong pissed him off. While I don't think that Carbon would ever go after me intentionally, I have no doubt that if I had lost track of where my body was (luckily, I generally gain sharp focus in an emergency) I would have been chomped.

And while I say that I don't think Carbs would ever challenge me (he's a squeeky love ball to me with zero signs, ever, of handler aggression and is highly compliant to me) this episode has shown me that what I think will happen isn't always what WILL happen. He's only 13 months old now...the fun isn't over yet!

I've been bitten a few times over the past 15 years, so I'm not going into it with any fear...just respect for an big animal and the knowledge that there will be consequences if I'm stupid. I'll suck up a bite if I have to, but I'm planning on having as controlled a situation as possible to prevent the possibility of that happening.

My plan is to have some trainer friends who are going to bring a strange dog over, and keep the strange dog at a distance...close enough to get a response from Carbs.

I'm thinking that I may have the lead draped over a branch for leverage, just in case. An 85lb, muscular thrashing and driven dog is no joke, I discovered. My feeling is, like you all said, I have to do this right the FIRST time, or there will be hell to pay.

And no worries Jenni...when it comes down to it, I won't feel sorry for Carbon. This has to be dealt with. I love the hell out of the dog...and I mean this dog is pretty damn fantastic on so many levels...but as I see it there are two issues here:

1.) If I allow Carbon to be this dog aggressive it will seriously impact my life and his...and my plans for him will go up in smoke, not to mention just a decline of quality of my life with my dog...what we can do and where we can go.

2.) The biggest problem as I see it is that despite his deference and submission to me in all other ways...the fact that I could not control him or his behavior (even if it was only once) is a sign that I do NOT, in fact, have his complete respect. If I don't have that when the s&%t really hits the fan, then everything else is just an illusion of control.

This is why I'm going to be the one to choke him out if it comes to that. A couple of the burly male handlers I know have offered to do that for me, but it needs to be ME, and Carbon needs to know it was ME. Still, I will have experienced people with me.

BUT! I'm not doing anything for a week or two. I need to be as educated as possible for this. Maybe I'm making a lot of it, but if you fail to plan then you plan to fail, right?

Questions for those of you who have had to do this:

After it's over...how do you interact with the dog? Do you just ignore him? Act natural, indifferent? That's what makes sense to me. And do hard dogs shake this off, or is there a period where they're withdrawn afterwords? Just want to know what to expect.

I'm willing to do this, but as always, I want to be fair to my dog and I ultimately want respect, not fear.

And I'm getting some conflicting advice about whether or not to call it a day after the first bout and test him again another day, or if we should continue the exercise until I get zero response from Carbs in response to the other dog. Any suggestions?

Carbon is a rockin' good dog. I want to do this correctly. I do NOT want to screw him up...so any detail is one I'm interested in.

And once again, thanks all. I appreciate your input...A LOT!

And Carol, yup...Carbon's trying on the big boy fur now. Wasn't it just last week that he was 8 weeks old and crying in the crate?!

 Quote: amber morgan

After it's over...how do you interact with the dog? Do you just ignore him? Act natural, indifferent? That's what makes sense to me. And do hard dogs shake this off, or is there a period where they're withdrawn afterwords? Just want to know what to expect.


And I'm getting some conflicting advice about whether or not to call it a day after the first bout and test him again another day, or if we should continue the exercise until I get zero response from Carbs in response to the other dog. Any suggestions?

Hiya! I've been in your boat quite a few times, with rescue dogs and with family dogs and OB dogs whose owners neglected to inform me of the DA problem. They actually told me he was quite friendly. Thought I wouldn't work with him on OB if I knew he was DA. Hah.

I love the DD collar. I used to only have prongs and choke chains before discovering the DD collar. Ah it's been wonderful.

To answer the first part, me personally, after use of the DD and the dog has been choked out, I act somewhat indifferent. I don't offer affection or praise, no "apologies" so to speak. I act as if nothing really happened without being affectionate. I am just watchful, calm, and cool. Yes, sometimes it can be hard to be cool, the first dog I ever did this to was completely unexpected (the above mentioned OB dog) and was actually choked out with a choke collar. My heart was racing. Next time I had a DD collar on him but the incident was never repeated.

Dogs react differently to this, some will be standoffish, others will be just as indifferent. All depends on how hard of a dog you are working with. Most dogs that can take a level 10 on a prong by a strong person, or even average person, and only escalate the aggression or ignore it the correction, is hard enough that they should bounce back fairly quickly. I have never had a dog become fearful of me after a session with the DD, so I don't know what to suggest regarding that. I just leave the dog alone for the most part unless necessary (such as continuing a walk, following through with regular OB) the fosters I took home at the end of the session I acted naturally indifferent if that makes sense. I was not "cold" but I was not "warm and bubbly." If the dog wants affection, judge the situation as you see it.

How many times you test him on the first day really depends on Carbon, IMO. Some dogs only need that one correction - I'd actually say most of the dogs I worked with only needed the DD exercise once. Only one dog needed it twice and he went right into his maniacal display of aggression immediately upon regaining his feet. If Carbon is still ready and willing to go go go go for that other dog after the first time, he needs a reminder right then and there.

BUT, I have only worked with a handful, about 7, really super aggressive dogs. A few(3) handler aggressive/DA mutts, an every living thing aggressive dog, and some(3) strictly DA dogs. I have worked with others that were DA to a degree but it never escalated to the point of insanity such as you described by Carbon. I will say it can be a humbling and frightening thing to see a dog react in that way and I almost feel fortunate I have limited experience with it lol. None of those dogs were my animals, I fostered some rescues for retraining and worked with other people's dogs.

I will also mention that as per previous comment, a dog that has never before shown signs of handler aggression can and will lash out in this exercise so be prepared and stick to your guns.

Best of luck, I would love to hear some true experts opinions. You have already gotten some great great advice.

Jenn

P.S. Carbon is quite a looker, I love that sig pic!

Hi Jenn, thanks for your comments. Yeah, I've worked with DA dogs before too...but I have to say Carbon's Mr. Hyde impression was a new one on me! And yeah, I fully expect that Carbon will take a piece out of me if he can while all this is going on. Maybe I should dress like the Michelin Man?

I just had a thought. I'm going to accomplish more with a $15 DD collar than I could with the $300 e-collar.

Good thing I can use the e-collar for other things, eh?

Amber, another ditto from this corner. Use the DD collar. It gives more of a stop-in-his-tracks type correction. The prong caused Lear to come up the leash at me in a similar situation, I think because combined with his drive at the time and the type of correction the prong administers caused his temper to flare even more. The DD collar is harder to ignore than the prong. Instead of the dog trying to deal with the pain of the correction, a real aggression causer, he's reduced to trying to deal with not having air.

I wouldn't use the e-collar for the same reason I wouldn't use the prong when the dog is in full blown aggression, namely the pain associated with having to give a high level correction with either collar in aggression situations, which I think ticks them off further. Also the pain would create a bigger chance of making them fight you as well as wanting to fight the dog. Neither the e-collar nor the prong gives a "calming" but serious as heck correction like the DD collar.

Okay, well...hmmm. I just finished watching the e-collar DVD twice, specifically the section on using it to deal with DA dogs.

Ed brings up some excellent ways to deal with this with the e-collar (not having to choke the dog out). It's all very controlled, and done initially with the dog in a kennel, and the handler outside of the kennel. Ultimately you graduate to a huge field with major distance between the two dogs. And you do it when the dog isn't at full throttle.

At first blush, and after refreshing on some of the articles that Ed wrote, and discussing this with other trainers...it seems to me that this might be something to consider. It certainly seems a safer way to test it out (for me AND Carbs) than choking him out.

Has anyone else seen this part of the E-collar DVD and know what I'm talking about? I am certainly not discounting all of the great advice and valuable opinions that I've been given here...but I'm thinking it might be worth a shot. I mean, if it doesn't work then the DD is always a last resort. What do you think? Has anyone tried the e-collar method Ed describes?

 Quote: Amber Morgan

Has anyone else seen this part of the E-collar DVD and know what I'm talking about? I am certainly not discounting all of the great advice and valuable opinions that I've been given here...but I'm thinking it might be worth a shot. I mean, if it doesn't work then the DD is always a last resort. What do you think? Has anyone tried the e-collar method Ed describes?

I haven't seen the DVD, but what you described sounds similar to an exercise I've heard works well for DA. If I'm thinking of the right thing, I've used similar exercises to work through some specific issues with my own dogs (Jenga briefly seemed to see toddlers as prey, and Digger was very dog reactive). In my inexperienced hands it helped considerably, so I'm sure it would be even more effective done by someone with more experience.

Ultimately, if you aren't 100% comfortable with the DD method, I would definitely give this approach a shot.

Depending on the type of dog you have is going to make a big difference to you on how your dog responds. I've seen dogs respond correctly to the e-collar at first and then after a while get used to it and be willing to take the burn to get what they want. You can't really hurt anything by starting at a distance and trying the e-collar.
Something that stuck out to me in your post was that you were injured for a while. Was your dog getting any o/b during that time? As long as your on top of your o/b it will make a big difference also.
I think going with the DD collar is a good idea and being close to a good branch or something of that nature is smart. There's no need to get bit if you do this right. I've had to give a few dogs an attitude adjustment and it has always worked. Twice I had a dog that needed it two times in a row. After I set him down, and as soon as he recovered, we walked a bit and then did some o/b. Right after that we set up a situation again while it was fresh in his mind of what the consequences would be. I proceeded then to try it again by walking him past the other dog with them both on the outside, and then with one on the inside.
Redirecting before things get to far also helps.