Guys, don't you all think that Cesar probably doesn't show EVERYTHING on the show??? I have actually never seen the show and don't really have any interest in it, but I digress. I would take anything on TV w/a grain of salt.

Having said that, neutering a whole bunch of male dogs does not mean everyone is going to get along. I have one dog who is awful to neutered males, and ok w/intact ones as long as they behave. It's like he's trying to cull the weak, or at least run them off. Some dogs are ok w/neutered males; maybe they don't see them as a threat. There are no absolutes with this.

At any rate, Robbin's question provoked me (and we all know what that means :grin b/c it implies that hormones are the determining factor in relations between dogs, which is ridiculous. HUMANS are the determining factor in whether a dog fight breaks out or doesn't. Neutering does not mean you can let them hang out together. Not neutering does not mean you can't let them hang out together. And the opposite of both those statements.

Why do we think they all need to get along? I couldn't care less if my boys like each other. In fact, I prefer that they don't care about each other and are interested in hanging out w/ME-not other dogs. If I have to "alter" a dog simply to get it under control, I am doing something wrong. Also, before anyone brings up "time"; if I don't have time to spend with each of my dogs SEPARATELY, I needn't consider another. Really, it's much easier to say "I'm getting another dog, and I don't care if you like him; I am in charge here, and I DO like him, and you will not maim or kill him." End of story.

Robbin, who makes the rules, Virgo Princess?

 Quote: jenni williams

Guys, don't you all think that Cesar probably doesn't show EVERYTHING on the show??? I have actually never seen the show and don't really have any interest in it, but I digress. I would take anything on TV w/a grain of salt.

Well....DUH, it is pretty much a given that it is edited fairly well.

The main question, that we have veered from a bit, is how he manages his pack. Which, is a great thing to see IMHO. I was skeptical of him at first too, until I actually watched the show and realized that he is a behavior "specialist" that actually teaches people the CORRECT way to handle their dogs.

I disagree that HUMANS are the only reason dogs fight. Granted, they can be a cause, however, I see dogfights all the time around here with absolutely no humans around. They fight over food in the middle of the road, a female in heat, picking who is top dog and just because they frickin feel like it.

And, sometimes there are people that do everything right but just seem to be a little soft, so altering helps them to manage a dog that they love, train correctly but is just a bit too much for them intact.

So, Jenni, while I see what you are saying, I do not agree with a lot of it. Not everyone is a unaltered dog kind of owner, so I think you are being a bit harsh on some.

Rock is altered and look what happened with him, I cannot imagine what he would be like with NUTS and an even bigger attitude. Not that I couldn't handle it, but I think it maybe would have happened more often. Unless, I suppose, you want to tell me that I cannot handle my dogs....

Just to add...I am sure there are lots of people here that want a new puppy or dog. Who doesn't?
But I can tell just by reading their posts that they are voicing their wants but know that they have to wait a while.

I have passed on a few dogs in the last year, although I was REALLY tempted, but I know that my pack is big and I knew what I wanted (Kaiserhaus Mal) and was not going to hurt that by bringing in another personal dog. It was a long decision process for Doug and I to get Ember, as is how it should be when people are thinking about a pet or a working dog.

I do agree though, that people need to think carefully about another addition but more so than that, they need to make sure it is going to be a breed that they can handle.

In fear of sounding a bit harsh here, I am NOT a Malinois promoter unless it is someone I know that can handle one. Even I am still learning the breed, however, they are a good fit for me.

(once I feel I "know it all" about Mals or dogs in general, then it will be time for me to get rid of my pack since I feel the learning NEVER stops and you can never know it all)

 Quote: carol boche

I disagree that HUMANS are the only reason dogs fight.

 Quote: jenni williams

HUMANS are the determining factor in whether a dog fight breaks out or doesn't.

WHOA, whoa, whoa, Carol. These two statements are not even close to having the same meaning. There are millions of REASONS, which is why I used the phrase DETERMINING FACTOR. Yes, they may want to kill the other one every day of their lives, but will they be permitted to?

 Quote: carol boche

Rock is altered and look what happened with him, I cannot imagine what he would be like with NUTS and an even bigger attitude. Not that I couldn't handle it, but I think it maybe would have happened more often. Unless, I suppose, you want to tell me that I cannot handle my dogs....

I would never, never, never, never, NEVER neuter a dog who is aggressive already...and absolutely believe that it can cause the problems in the first place. I am as anti-neuter as they come; the only aggression issues I've seen that were truly PROBLEMS were w/neutered dogs. I don't like 'em, don't trust 'em, just plain won't have one, unless their LIFE is at risk and neutering is the only option. I have a list of reasons why as long as most of my posts , which I would be happy to cite, if anyone is actually interested, but I think most of the medical/behavior reasons have already been listed in about a zillion other threads.

For cripes' sake, even the AKC has acknowledged this problem, and if the AKC has admitted it, why oh why do vets keep prescribing it as a "fix-all?" Here's the excerpt : A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12) So, my dear friend, I would argue that you don't know if he'd be better or worse .

 Quote: jenni williams

hormones are the determining factor in relations between dogs, which is ridiculous. HUMANS are the determining factor in whether a dog fight breaks out or doesn't.

I respectfully disagree.

Hormones are not THE determining factor in relations between dogs, but they are A determining factor. For example, dogs neutered before puberty are "more interesting" to intact dogs. There are also studies proving that behaviour in dogs is directly affected by castration (for example, http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/petpop/proscons.html)
Neutered males would be less inclined to fight over a female in heat, for instance, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with their relationship with a human owner.

So yes, sometimes dog fights are caused by poor management by their owner, but sometimes, they aren't. And yes, neutering does have an effect on this. It's not 100% cause/effect, as in neutered dogs never fight and ALL of intact dogs do, but there is definitely an influence.

Edit: both Carol and Jenni posted while I was writing this! Sorry!!

 Quote: Jenni Williams

I would argue that you don't know if he'd be better or worse .

I'm glad.

 Quote: jenni williams

For cripes' sake, even the AKC has acknowledged this problem, and if the AKC has admitted it, why oh why do vets keep prescribing it as a "fix-all?"

Last I saw of a AKC dog show, they were promoting Pedigree dog food too. (or was it Eukanuba???) Either way.................

 Quote: angela burrell

 Quote: jenni williams

hormones are the determining factor in relations between dogs, which is ridiculous. HUMANS are the determining factor in whether a dog fight breaks out or doesn't.

I respectfully disagree.

Hormones are not THE determining factor in relations between dogs, but they are A determining factor. For example, dogs neutered before puberty are "more interesting" to intact dogs. There are also studies proving that behaviour in dogs is directly affected by castration (for example, http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/petpop/proscons.html)
Neutered males would be less inclined to fight over a female in heat, for instance, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with their relationship with a human owner.

So yes, sometimes dog fights are caused by poor management by their owner, but sometimes, they aren't. And yes, neutering does have an effect on this. It's not 100% cause/effect, as in neutered dogs never fight and ALL of intact dogs do, but there is definitely an influence.

Oh, good Lord. NO, NO, NO! Does no one understand me???

1) Dogs fight for lots of reasons, neutered or not.
2) Dogs can fight only if owner allows it (intentional or not)
3) Hormones are a part of the equation, but again, ONLY IF ALLOWED.
4) I NEVER SAID CAUSED. OR REASON.
5) I ain't talkin' about gettin' along. I's talkin' about SEPARATION when I say humans are the factor determining whether a dog fight is allowed to occur or not.

Carol, I'm glad you're glad
Going home now to deal w/my hormonally charged crew.

Angela, half of your post is what I was saying...so me thinks perhaps you didn't read my tone right? Or I suck at writing.

 Quote: carol boche

 Quote: jenni williams

Guys, don't you all think that Cesar probably doesn't show EVERYTHING on the show??? I have actually never seen the show and don't really have any interest in it, but I digress. I would take anything on TV w/a grain of salt.

Unless, I suppose, you want to tell me that I cannot handle my dogs....

"Leave it to you to put up a post that gets things going around here!" (Sandy Moore)

What can I say? Wow!

I've learned that there are cats that get vasectomies! I had no idea! Fascinating! This whole ferrel cats can still get 'frisky' but not produce, thingy! Whodathunk?

I also am quite impressed with Caesar Millan and his style of control when it comes to such an extremely large pack! We are talking 20 plus dogs here! Plus the constant influx of strange dogs for training! Not something even the indestructible Virgo Goddess, Jenni would find and easy task, even on her best day. That being said, I do agree there are alot of fights caused between dogs because of human stupidity but on the other hand dogs fight just because they don't like each other. I've seen females take one look at each other and try to rip each other apart. I think they can be alot like people, some of us just dont mesh, some of us do. In a pack, granted the alpha keeps fights to a minimum but that doesn't mean they coexist peacefully all the time. More often than not the ones that are fighting at the beginning of the day are probably the same ones fighting at the end of the day. Not because the alpha has no control but simply because they don't like each other or are vying for a higher rank.

No doubt that most people aren't quite as disciplined as Jenni (freakin Ninja warriors, maybe) that could pass up a pup and not bring it home in spite of time/attention restraints. Come to my house and see the amount of favoritism that my GSD gets w/his protection training over the time/my rescue dogs get and you might wanna karate chop me! It may not be right but it is what it is. In my home some dogs have different purposes than others, so equal time is not granted. Had I more time in a day, maybe but reality dictates otherwise.

Jenni, why you wouldn't want your pack members to like each other and coexist in harmony is quite surprising to me. If they always have to be separated then IMO you don't really have a pack. I realize to have their devotion/attention on you would be a primary motivator in training, however, I'd rather have family equality and peace rather than tension and turmoil AND having to dink around with keeping them separated all for the sake of idolatry.

Getting back to the original question though, we had three rottweiler males that got on fine, all neutered with never an issue. No doubt they all new their place and as long as everyone didn't step on toes we never had any issues. At some point I am going to have to neuter Levi due to his receded teste and he gets on fine with my other neutered male, so I wonder if it could continue to be done with other dogs. Not that I am saying I would add to the existing pack at this time but if I could buy some property and take on more, maybe rescue and rehome, I would love to do so. It's just a novel idea in my head at the moment.

Another interesting thing to consider is in spite of Levi's having his dinglebells, he still respects the authority of the older neutered male. Is this because he hasn't matured yet or because he came here so young or because the older dog is neutered?? Interesting question, isn't it?

Isn't this fun? I just love it when we all start sharing ideas and learning from one another!

Although, I am the one doing most all of the learning, lol.

Jenni, you do have me agreeing with the 'take anything on t.v. w/a grain of salt. Not a big T.V. fan, lol. Takes what little time I have away from my dogs! Oh yea, and then theres the kids, lol!!

 Quote: carol boche

Just to add...I am sure there are lots of people here that want a new puppy or dog. Who doesn't?
But I can tell just by reading their posts that they are voicing their wants but know that they have to wait a while.

I have passed on a few dogs in the last year, although I was REALLY tempted, but I know that my pack is big and I knew what I wanted (Kaiserhaus Mal) and was not going to hurt that by bringing in another personal dog. It was a long decision process for Doug and I to get Ember, as is how it should be when people are thinking about a pet or a working dog.

To be sure, Carol!

Having taken this journey with all of you and having learned SOOOO much here at Leerburg, I can tell you w/o a doubt that any dogs that I have in my home from now on, they will be considered for what they really ARE. If I want a pet then I will evaluate on that basis. If I want a working dog or a dog that can perform a specific function then it will be evaluated on that note. No more "oh how cute, bring it home and then now what?

Education is really the greatest gift of all isn't it? Amazing how one year and one website later my reasons for being a dog owner have become much more sophisticated than an entire lifetime could dictate.