Mike,
You have to remember that there are no real set in stone absolutely must do rules (or very very few, like no hitting for an example). Dogs are living things, and no two dogs are going to respond the same. Think of training books, and yes Eds' podcasts as general guide lines and you must find a level of comunication and combination of tricks (if you will) that work for your indivdual dog. Chin up, the dog will learn, all you need is his combination.
People here gladly try to help dog owners in your situation, bear with us, see if maybe something can be figured out. Let's start with how the play and exercise times are scheduled. What comprises play? What structure does exercise take on?

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

At 6 months old, I would suggest a prong collar for corrections for biting. http://www.leerburg.com/prong.htm . My dog was like yours as a puppy, nothing worked. I think he felt he was born for the purpose of biting. As Ed Frawley explains in his articles and podcasts, it becomes a pack issue (especially at 6 months old I imagine it has definitely progressed to a pack issue, not vying for rank but already feeling it has a top rank). So you also need to read Ed's articles on establishing pack leadership (groundwork). That coupled with a prong is what worked to settle (a relative term) down a bit and stop the incessant biting.

I like the quick release prong, have tried the regular kind but with a biting puppy the regular prong can be hard to get on. The quick release not only comes off easily but goes on easily.
http://www.leerburg.com/prong.htm#quick (chrome)
http://www.leerburg.com/prong.htm#ssquickprong (stainless steel)

I also feel that a couple of minutes or so after a correction has been given and you feel you want a break, the crate is a useful tool if you make sure you're calm and happy about sending the dog to his crate, not associating it with any correction, always giving treats when the pup enters the crate.

Mike, our pup is the first pup I've had w/ any drive, so it's been a real learning curve w/ her. Of course, I thought I had the hardest pup in the world, but I'm learning that she's a cream puff compared to most of the dogs on this site!

I had been redirecting also, but I found at 6 months, although her mouthing wasn't as incessant as it was while she was teething, she still mouthed too much. (she's strictly a family dog)
And I can state pretty certainly that most of it was related to my not being a strong enough pack leader. I made some changes to improve my position as pack leader (subtle ones) and also made sure that she was dragging a short lead in the house at all times. When she mouthed, she got a 'No biting' and if she didn't stop, a firm correction (1 good pop with a flat collar)

She has significantly improved over the past few weeks, and I think it's mostly due to the changes that I made regarding pack structure.

Get the new video 'Establishing pack structure w/ the family pet' if you don't have it. It's well worth it!

Yeah, it really sounds to me like a pack structure issue. Is this dog very dominant? Does he ever bark at you? Is he pushy? How does he request affection?

It's hard for me to agree that it's a dominant/pack issue.

The daily routine(weekdays( is wake up at 5am, let him out for potty, put him back in crate and go to work. Wife wakes up at 6:30 and does her things until she leaves at 7:30. Which means unfortunately since I work so early it's hard to get good execerise in the morning. She usually takes him for a 10-15 minute walk.

I come home at 10am-1pm to play with him. Then I come home from work finally at 4pm. Where we go for a walk then play outside with ball chasing. He has a crazy ball drive. Bedtime at 10pm.

That's the basic schedule.

Now onto why I don't think its dominant/pack issue. We make him work for everything. Outside, food, treats, etc. NILIF style. No couches, no beds. He listens to everything. When distracted by dogs, he'll listen to us. All except for when he is biting.

When he greets us from coming home, his ears are tucked back behind his head submissively. He just rubs against us for awhile. If I go to hug him, he becomes mouthy.

If it's just me and him. I can do something at the computer, keep him occupied with a bone and he's fine. If it's him and my wife, he won't care about the bone. Just biting her. If she's doing something, he'll want attention and bite her for it to start playing. He NEVER does this with me. Only if I play with him he wants to bite. He never tries to steal my attention like he does with my wife. So maybe this part of it is pack issue that she's an equal or below him but I think the main biting isn't pack issue because he still does it to me. I think he just doesn't understand we can't handle the bites like his littermates and hes stubborn to learn that.

He barks at us when we do the ignore technique when he bites at us. He does the whole "prey bark jump in the air pounce" towards us(not actually touching us) to try and get the attention. We tried to see if he would give up if we kept ignoring him. 15 minutes WE gave up and played with him. He wouldn't stop barking or nipping to get us attention. He's not pushy. I really don't ever see him "request" affection. Only time he lets us give him affection is when hes tired and wanting to sleep. Otherwise if we try to give him affection he thinks it's playtime with the mouth.

Should I go to prong or should I stick to it for a few more months since hes only 6 months?

Edit: Re-reading my post I guess he is a little pushy if he doesn't give up for our attention.

Mike,
I really feel for you having gone thru the same issues with our dog Nickie (who is now 15 months old). We had never had a puppy or even been around a puppy for any length of time. What an eye-opening experience! It doesn't help matters that he is a mixed breed of two very stubborn breeds (pitbull and bullmastiff).

We also tried the re-directing and the loud yelps when he would bite - just made things worse! At one point my husband even said "that dog hates me - he is always biting me!" Nickie did not like any kind of affection - if you tried to touch him to pet him (whether on his head, shoulder, paw - whatever, he would try to bite). He has outgrown the "don't touch me" attitude and even will allow me to brush him once a day without me getting the bandaids out.

The prong collar certainly works wonders - also always having a drag line on him when he is out of the crate.

I know that our problems are dominance/pack issues but we are doing the best that we can and are seeing slow, steady results. One thing that I definitely think helps more than anything else is having lots and lots of exercise.

Hope it helps to know that you are not alone and that there are plenty of people here on the board who can offer some good advice.

 Quote: mike rastall

It's hard for me to agree that it's a dominant/pack issue. ...

... Now onto why I don't think its dominant/pack issue. We make him work for everything. Outside, food, treats, etc. NILIF style. No couches, no beds. He listens to everything. When distracted by dogs, he'll listen to us. All except for when he is biting. ...

If it's just me and him. I can do something at the computer, keep him occupied with a bone and he's fine. If it's him and my wife, he won't care about the bone. Just biting her. If she's doing something, he'll want attention and bite her for it to start playing. He NEVER does this with me. Only if I play with him he wants to bite. He never tries to steal my attention like he does with my wife. So maybe this part of it is pack issue that she's an equal or below him but I think the main biting isn't pack issue because he still does it to me. I think he just doesn't understand we can't handle the bites like his littermates and hes stubborn to learn that.

I agree with you. Clearly with your wife it is a pack issue. If a dog is biting you while you're playing with that dog, I'm not concerned. That can be addressed. My understanding of the problem you described was that he was biting you all the time and you couldn't get him to stop. That is clearly a pack structure issue.

With a really dominant dog, doing "NILIF" is a great step towards maintaining pack structure, but it simply isn't enough.

I don't recommend the full on "crate time except for potty and walks" approach on a 6 month old puppy, but I think a modified version of that approach could be very successful.

I would eliminate play time, let your wife feed the dog and take care of his needs (potty, walks) and instead of play time have him tethered to you calmly in the house. A dog does not need to chase a toy to be satisfied. They need to go for walks, to eat, and to spend time with their people. This time does not need to be hectic.

Also, begin to teach him that he only gets attention when he is being calm. I know you've tried this and you were unable to sustain it, perhaps you can set up a scenario that will help you to succeed.

In the "Basic Dog Obedience" DVD, Ed demonstrates a way of teaching a "Sit" to a VERY excitable, jumpy dog. He ties the dog to a tree and stays out of range of the leash. When the dog sits calmly Ed moves in and rewards it with affection, when it begins to go crazy he just moves out of the range that the leash allows the dog to move. It goes crazy but is not rewarded for it. A few sessions of this daily, along with the elimination of "play time", for a week or two, should get the message through even to the thickest of dogs.

 Quote:

He barks at us when we do the ignore technique when he bites at us. He does the whole "prey bark jump in the air pounce" towards us(not actually touching us) to try and get the attention. We tried to see if he would give up if we kept ignoring him. 15 minutes WE gave up and played with him. He wouldn't stop barking or nipping to get us attention. He's not pushy. I really don't ever see him "request" affection. Only time he lets us give him affection is when hes tired and wanting to sleep. Otherwise if we try to give him affection he thinks it's playtime with the mouth.

Sounds like he's high energy, possibly with a little prey drive. He really sounds like a great guy. Barking is terrible, because our tendancy (even I do this, still, to this day) is to say "stop" or "quit it" -- if the dog hasn't been trained a "no bark" command, talking to it just reinforces barking. "You were ignoring me, but when I bark you said something. Maybe if I bark LOUDER..."

Try setting up a situation where he is tethered somewhere that he will often bark. When he begins to bark, turn your back on him and leave the room. The instant he is quiet, return and give him a treat. A few minutes a day, every day. And remember to reward him for being calm and quiet at other times, too. If he's attentively watching you and not getting into trouble, give him a scritch and a treat for it.

 Quote:

Should I go to prong or should I stick to it for a few more months since hes only 6 months?

Edit: Re-reading my post I guess he is a little pushy if he doesn't give up for our attention.

I don't think you need to introduce prong corrections, yet. I honestly think he can be taught correct manners without a prong.

In any event, these are not training infractions, they are pack behavior issues. Instead of a prong correction, I would use a cheek scruffing.

 Quote: mike rastall

I think he just doesn't understand we can't handle the bites like his littermates and hes stubborn to learn that.

Well, regardless of the "why"...whether it's because he's never learned that it's not okay to bite for attention or in play or if it's a pack issue...I still think appropriate corrections are in order. And maybe even amp up the exercise and some obedience sessions.

Have you tried correcting him for the biting before? And if so, how did you correct? Some dogs take corrections fine with just a flat collar, so you might not even need a prong. But if you do, I think he's old enough to take it.

I will say that I agree with Amber here. He is old enough to handle a prong correction, and probably with no real adverse reaction. But I think you're seeing some underlying issues that need to be addressed, as well.

If you correct the symptom and still have a dominant dog, other problems will occur. If you teach him that you're the pack leader, and you decide when it's time to be excited and when it's time to be calm, it's easy to teach that there is an appropriate and inappropriate time for mouthplay.

I haven't done any correction techniques. When he bites now I just physically put him in a down/stay because that's the only thing that works for that present moment in time. Nothing will make him stop instantly unless I physically hold him down.

I have the 8 weeks to 8 months DVD where Ed shows the cheek thing. That doesn't work. Second I let him down, he's back at us.

I think I'm definately going to start with the leash in the house and go from there.