Yes, It is possible. I had one. Although he would not have made the BSP he worked hard and well and consistently. He was V rated at the USA seiger show. However, like anything else, once you start leaning to extremes ( in this instance, extreme working ability) you invariably compromise in another catagory. If one purchases a Daiblo, the cargo capacity of an F350 dually won't be there. There are dogs that balance, although rare. Having had some of the best in high lines, I prefer the working lines. Above all, I will be loyal to the work as it is the origin of our beloved breed. The AKC should be tried in a criminal court for the damage they have done to the most regal of breeds. ( Can't say i'm against the death penalty either). How's Chasrlston; I went to the college on the end of Rutledge Ave with all the fancy white buildings and parade deck in the middle. The reason for why all the good looking working dogs are in Europe is simple: Americans ( take no offense, it has proven itself time and time again) will buy anything. If they are convinced that what they bought is worth the money they paid for it, they don't look back. Look at Zwinger V. Emsbogen, Heinz Gerdes is an SV judge and has VERY handsome BSP participants.

P.S. To further demonstrate Richard's point about size and nausium, look at Jello v. Wienerau!!!!!! In the "bite work" at the '94(?) USA seiger show, the dog just about ran from Al Milner, one of if not the most consistent and FAIR trial helpers I have ever seen. Jello's son, Lars was equally if not even more so, laughable. Show titles and placings, its hard to compete with the line, however, I would never own one. My High line dog came dog from Uran by virtue of Warro Huhnegrab. As I concede, my dog Uran, would not have ever placed in the Nationals, how ever he would not have been out of his element either and he saved my bacon at work x2 and was a relentless patrol dog (once I allowed him to "dirty up" a little).

I am in awe. SOMEONE ELSE KNOWS THAT IF WORKING PEOPLE WOULD SHOW...they might WIN. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Seriously...by staying out of the rings--you refuse to support the "breed selection" that is supposed to be going on. Patrons of the breed, even say 20 years ago, would faint at the wobble-bobble GSD's of today... sheesh...the last show I was at with a respectably sized GSD entry, the RWD could have doubled as an extra-super-duper-huge-ass-hairy EGG BEATER.

The neat thing about dog showing is that it is merely glorified GAMBLING. Cuz, they can only pick from what's out there. And Trust ME... half the time, whatever is there in force (by majority) is what wins...most all-rounders have a miniscule clue of what Type actually is for the breed...and a regal work specimen--with that gleam in his eye, can stand up to the spit shined hair glued in wobbler next door.

JMHO. Like I said, I'm flying solo on this Total Dog thing, I think.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Are there any bloodlines then worth watching, here or abroad?

Qualifying my statement with--Form should serve Function...and Type to me is:
what dog is called for by the original purpose and standard of the breed.
IN MY MIND.

I could really give a goat what the current fashion trend is...you just ride the wave til whatever you are is "in" again. To me, the Leerburg dogs I've seen have Type because they look, act, and function as a German Shepherd should. Now, have I seen any with AKC titles? Um, how many are out there being shown?
A dog can have Type without a breed Title!
Perhaps we fall prey to the sin of assuming a dog is only worth breeding if the correct encoding falls before or after its name. Do any of you (no finger pointing...genuine question) go out there searching for a dog that could improve type while maintaining drive? Selecting further breeding specimen with the highest drive, and in the next generation, select again for overall "fit" in the standard with awesome work ability? Slow but sure, YES I KNOW, but wouldn't the result be a TOTAL dog? Yes, this raises your criteria for preplanning and selection--but would it not be worth it to honor the breed's standard while producing an outstanding working animal?

I'll venture to guess that since the breeds we focus on are euro in origin, that there have to be some Euro kennels that still work a Correct-to-the-Standard dog. Maybe not current "fad" dog, but surely one that I could pick to improve some structural facet of my bitch while maintaining or improving drive...

Still think that I inhale?

I have a question for you fxdlrider, what type of GSD do you think is an "eye catcher"? What specific things would you like to see improved opon in a working line that would make your "TOTAL GSD"? I would really like to know what you think is the ideal.
One more question, what are you talking about "patrons of the breed would faint" to see the modern show GSD. Who do you think are the ones that have molded the show dogs that you are looking at. I would say the patrons of the GSD breed in America, even 20 years ago, are a big part of the problem. 99.9% of those that are "in the Fancy" know exactly Zero about working dogs or training working dogs.

Here is a funny story- A while back I went to a major show here in Portland. They had a pre-show sitting where all the dogs had to be available to the public. Anyway, I stopped to speak to a AKC show breeder who was kinda giving a little speach about training and "working" her dogs when somebody in the group asked her if she had ever thought about training any of her dogs in narcotics detection. She got very serious and stern as she said,"I don't think it is moral to give the dogs all those drugs, to get them hooked, just so you can use them to catch drug dealers." I almost died right there of laughteritis. This lady was in her late 40s and had been a breeder of Quality German Shepherds for over 20 years.

Well, speaking of "eye-catcher"... at least some of the German show people are showing renewed respect for the sable coat. And about time, too. I don't think we can expect any groundswell changes in demand for working ability in the high lines when one of the fundamental pigments of the GSD breed is frozen out for being "unattractive" or "wolflike" or some of the other terms I've heard show people use for sable dogs. This shows an obsession with image, and image is a long, long way from function.

Pete Felknor

Really what I think it will come down to is more of the working people taking a more direct approach to be involved with setting the standard. One of the only ways that I see this coming about would be to make the protection aspect of the Sieger Shows much more demanding. Then dogs that are the apple of all show's people's eye will not be able to win unless the animal shows real working ability. Unless the rules are changed people wanting to combine both will be isolated. It will never become the offical standard,if that matters?
Will this happen? I don't know. I have not seen any major changes taken place since the SV/Police split in Germany. If this is not motivation then what is? Then they lowered the protection pass score to 70. I think from the looks of it the Show GSD is getting more popular, and becoming the long-term goal of the governing bodies. On the other hand the A.K.C has sanctioned a Schutzhund trial. Again we will have to see. I am not sure that his means anything of substance. It is surley a step in the right direction, but not a run for the working GSD.......

Michael,

The issue isn't the Standard. The issue is the education that the judges get and where the judges are selected from. If you are really serious about creating a working/ show combination the best bet would be to start over with a new organization or hold a conformation show in conjunction with a protection/Sch trial. The judges would have no choice but to put up working dogs if that is all there is!

There is an organization in Canada called Rarities that holds shows for some of the rare breeds. They have 2 levels of champions. The Champion level is based on winnig against other dogs in the ring. The Grand Champion needs to beat other Champions and Grand Champions and have passed a Temperament Test. A step in the right direction.

Richard, I guess you could get into starting a new organization. I am not sure that this will correct the problem. I am talking about saving the breed's working ability as a whole-across, the board. If us work people were to go ahead and start a new organization there are many brick walls that we wold run into. One being that the new comer would not be reconized by the WUSV so that would kinda of isolate us from them. Is that a bad thing? I do not want to debate that at this time. We follow the SV in America or the standards of the AKC. When it comes to the GSD. In America USA is the working steward of of the GSD. I think this is where it would have to change for it to have a broad impact. Why do I think this? It has a lot of members that are intrested in the GSD and it is not governed by the AKC; which again may be shifting tides a little. But not to get off track, the only way to corect this problem I feel is to try to eliminate the extreme show dogs from the breeding pool, and make temperment and work abilty more important then the overall looks of the dog. Not to say the best worker should be the winner if he is not correct in a set type, but the breeding that we have done to accomplish the extreme angulations of the Show GSD has really killed most of the working abilty in these animals. Unless the standard is changed judges will judge the way that they always have. I feel that unitl this is done, there will always be two diffrent dogs within the breed, and a few kennels that produce each type of GSD. I think the Universal Sieger show is a great start and maybe this should be the standard for the Sieger Show. Although I am not really intrested in conformation shows. To hold a conformation show and trail together is another great start as you have stated, but it must spread al the way to the top competions in order for this to happen. I also think that in order to make changes in the breed the regulations that one must obtain for breeding under the SV standard in America requires much to much time to obtain. I think a ZTP type system for breeding is the way to go. This way you can eliminate poor stock, without losing alot money and time and those to evils do play a major role in breeding.

Michael,

Again the problem is not the Standard, it is the application of the Standard and the dogs the judges put up based on the overall prefferences of the majority of the people showing.

The General Apperance in part is described this way:
The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living.

Here is the Standard for the Top Line from the AKC Standard for the GSD:

Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short. The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.

Been to a Show recently? I have, if you look at the dogs in the ring, how many of them would you describe this way? When I went it was 2 of 50. There is no requirement in the Standard for the extreame angulation you see in the present show dogs. There is a description of the temperament, including faults:

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

Would you say this describes the basic show animal of today? I wouldn't. Notice the standard requires the dog to be fit to work as a GUARDIAN and WATCHDOG as required. Is this a description of the average show winner?

As nice as it would be to eliminate the poor specimens from the gene pool it will never happen. First, because there is no provision for breeding requirements in the AKC rules. Second there is no such thing as a breed warden in the U.S., and it didn't work in Germany. Third you would have to convince the entire fancy to adhere to this Standard, how many of them think there is a problem now?

In order to preserve both the conformation and the working abilities you need to get the WORKING people to consider conformation in their breeding. It would be ideal to create a conformation portion in conjunction with working trials so that the working dogs could be judged seperately and by realistic application of the Standard. I am not sure you could do that with in the AKC.

And you have stated the real problem with your comment, "Although I am not really intrested in conformation shows." As long as this is a general attitude in the working community nothing will change. This is the exact attitude that has created 3-5 seperate breeds of the GSD, depending how you want to count them. All are distinct and have seperate breed chacteristics.