Thanks Cindy - I really appreciate you relaying Roni's input.

I want whatever action I take to enhance the time Ellie and I spend in the woods in regard to obedience in this situation not take away from our joy and freedom that we have together. I hadn't thought of the SAR perspective -- that is a true working situation that takes this to another level I'm sure.

Initially I was thinking that this situation isn't possible to set up, so how in the world do you train for it? It seemed to me the only way to go was the e-collar.

But with a little more thought I am going to try to set up some training situations with just the long line at first. I know where to find the "critters" and when they are in our sight Ellie is going to get a pop on the prong coupled with "leave it" and "here" -- good things when she gets back to me. I'll add in the e-collar and distance after I think she's getting it.

I am going to take Mike's suggestion too -- after the chase has begun not to give the command when I know she is not going to listen -- wait until she is coming back. That is when I want to give the direction and praise.

Practicing recalls in different drive situations like Adam suggested is also a great idea too.

One last question -- people have said they trained this with a goat or horses and it transferred to other animals -- leads me to the thought process that I am training to inhibit the pursuit not necessarily specific to a certain "critter"?

Katie

A recall is a recall, once the dog understands what you expect then it shouldn't matter if it's a llama or a chipmunk. Of course, your timing has to be good and you need to set yourself up for success.

Rush (my 5 month old Malinois) was taught a recall under distraction on our walks by using his mother as the distraction. He loves chasing her. I worked on that and it seems to have sunk in to his little pointed head, that when I say Rush Come he should come back to me even when our guinea hens are trotting about. He hadn't been exposed to the guineas as a little tiny pup like I typically do with my dogs, due to the really cold weather.

We came across 1/2 dozen deer two days ago, and when I called him back from those he responded automatically. I am using low level ecollar and lots of verbal praise with a treat when he finally gets to me.

I think the key is to always be ready for a distraction to appear, don't get complacent about it. One missed opportunity can set your training back.

That all makes sense.

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

We came across 1/2 dozen deer two days ago, and when I called him back from those he responded automatically. I am using low level ecollar and lots of verbal praise with a treat when he finally gets to me.

Just so I am clear -- what is the sequence here in commands and stim?

Leave it -- no response from dog -- stim?

Leave it paired with stim?

Do you even use "leave it" or just "here"?

Katie

 Quote: Katie O'Connor

”I take my dog for long off-leash walks on snowmobile trails or snowshoeing through the woods.”

Katie:
Respectfully, please reconsider this practice altogether unless it is necessary for a specific function (SAR, legal hunting, tracking practice, etc.). Lacking an express purpose allowing a dog to run free (off-lead) in wilderness settings increase the risk of wildlife counterattack, pathogen dissemination, and injury (the list goes on) by unexpected environmental encounters. For instance, coyote packs often lure domestic dogs into an ambush by first enticing or advantaging themselves during a chase. (And this happens far more often than folks realize.)

Certainly tethering the dog while on outdoor hikes (outings) would solve the engaged “crittering” issue, and wholly eliminate e-collar considerations; specific to the issue as you’ve outlined.

Of course tethering is a personal choice and I’m not here to suggest (even remotely), you’re somehow a less responsible dog handler for allowing the dog to run free. Although by permitting the dog to roam without direct restraint, irrespective the effectiveness of e-collars, you are risking more than you may be aware of. But such detail is a topic for another thread.

...Just some food for thought. Thanks in advance for your understanding.

 Quote: katie o'connor

That all makes sense.

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

We came across 1/2 dozen deer two days ago, and when I called him back from those he responded automatically. I am using low level ecollar and lots of verbal praise with a treat when he finally gets to me.

Just so I am clear -- what is the sequence here in commands and stim?

Leave it -- no response from dog -- stim?

Leave it paired with stim?

Do you even use "leave it" or just "here"?

Katie

I use "here" and no stim unless the dog doesn't show me IMMEDIATE intent to return. When my dogs hear their name they are usally already turning around and running to me before add my come command.

FYI,I make sure my dog is happily running to me 100% of the time with NO distractions before I head outside to the big exciting world. I'm a bit of a control freak so this is something I spend a lot of time on.

If needed you pair the low level stim with the word....
i.e. come, come, come....paired with tap, tap, tap on the button.

I hope I explained that right!

 Quote: mark villasenor

 Quote: katie o'connor

”I take my dog for long off-leash walks on snowmobile trails or snowshoeing through the woods.”

Katie:
Respectfully, please reconsider this practice altogether unless it is necessary for a specific function (SAR, legal hunting, tracking practice, etc.). Lacking an express purpose allowing a dog to run free (off-lead) in wilderness settings increase the risk of wildlife counterattack, pathogen dissemination, and injury (the list goes on) by unexpected environmental encounters. For instance, coyote packs often lure domestic dogs into an ambush by first enticing or advantaging themselves during a chase. (And this happens far more often than folks realize.)

Certainly tethering the dog while on outdoor hikes (outings) would solve the engaged “crittering” issue, and wholly eliminate e-collar considerations; specific to the issue as you’ve outlined.

Of course tethering is a personal choice and I’m not here to suggest (even remotely), you’re somehow a less responsible dog handler for allowing the dog to run free. Although by permitting the dog to roam without direct restraint, irrespective the effectiveness of e-collars, you are risking more than you may be aware of. But such detail is a topic for another thread.

...Just some food for thought. Thanks in advance for your understanding.

I also snowshoe with my dogs off leash every day, sometimes twice a day. If you do your homework and prepare your dog for off leash walks, then I think the risk is minimal. The emotional and exercise benefits of being allowed to really RUN, without fences or tethers is a huge thing for most dogs and depending on breed may be almost critical. I have Malinois, and their exercise requirements are huge! Some dogs just get a real emotional release being able to stretch out and gallop, my Dobermans were also like this.

If I have control of my dog, coyotes are not going to lure my dog away-I don't think you realize that just because your dog is off leash it doesn't mean they are out of your sight. My dogs stay quite close to me, as they have been trained. An ecollar on an off leash dog is merely an invisible leash, and you can tailor it's use to whatever you wish.

I think it also depends on your definition of "wilderness". My daily walk is through woods that have turkeys, deer, coyotes and eagles regularly seen yet we are within the city limits. I might be a little more cautious about taking my dogs off leash in bear country.

You need to weigh the risks for your own situation and since this thread IS about training with the ecollar, giving advice to never let your dog off leash isn't really all that helpful. Katie puts thought behind her training and asks great questions, I don't think she fits the category of someone who should just give up the ecollar and keep their dog on leash.

Thanks Cindy!

And Mark -- your post is well-taken and taken into consideration by me.

I use generally the same areas to bike and trail run in summer months and those times my dog is tethered to me or on a Springer attached to my bike. During rests I will stop and let her off-leash to relieve herself or wade in a stream.

During the winter months I feel as if I can be more aware of what's around me given the snow-cover. Animal movement is more clear to me and I can see tracks in the snow. This may well be a false sense of security -- and again your points are well-taken.

I also want to say that my dog isn't finding her own fun or allowed out of my sight -- matter of fact -- I should say she won't let me out of her sight. In any event, we play games and interact the entire time we're out. I also have the Leerburg Dog Bell on her collar with the intent to make our presence known.

Katie

 Quote: Katie O'Connor

”...your post is well-taken and taken into consideration by me.”

Katie:
Thanks for graciously reflecting the more salient (subtextual) point of my statements; consideration, as my comments fit individual criteria. I’m glad you apparently found my remarks helpful, if only by way of reassessing where you stand on the subject matter.

I’ll shut up now, as I don’t wish to distract your thread further.

(BTW: Ellie is a beauty!)

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

 Quote: sarah ward

Now he knows that if he chases deer, elk or anything else he will immediately get his neck fried, and he's really good when we are out in the back country.

"neck frying" is not really a part of good dog training and I am hopeful that your intent was not to imply that.

Remember, this is an open forum and with so many people still fearful and prejudiced of using the electric collar this isn't exactly the best terminology to be using.

Sorry - Cindy is right, that was a poor turn of phrase even though meant lightheartedly. What I should have said was an e-collar correction strong enough to get his attention, even if he is focused on chasing something.

At the risk of repeating what has already been posted, I want to add that I really have found the e-collar to be invalauble when dealing with this issue in my current hard-headed dog, who was completely untrained when I got him as a young adult. Our best times are in the back country together. I second Cindy's comments about the need for some dogs to stretch out and really run, but also the fact that off-leash does not mean the dog is out of sight and you are not paying attention. My dog and I regularly hike in bear country, including grizzly bear country, where the consequences of not keeping your dog in sight, close by and under control can be much more serious than deer chasing. Staying alert and using common sense and an e-collar under these circumstances, IMO, are safer than wandering in a daze up the trail with your dog rambling about at the end of a flexi (which I've seen all too often).

I was also thinking about Katie's questions and what exactly I did when working through this with my current dog, and it seems to me that timing - as in so much else - is crucial. It comes down to giving a timely command that should be understood ("leave it", "come") - or better yet, just "no" before the dog gets in drive and takes off in pursuit, then giving the dog that necessary moment to respond, and taking corrective action (via e-collar in this case) if the command is ignored. Plus praise and encouragement as soon as the dog does the right thing. I can't see how you could do this using an escape training approach. Or am I oversimplifying?

I guess the SAR application really is different because the dog may be out of sight and hearing range if they have hit the scent of the victim (one of the risks) and has to make a decision not to start the pursuit of a prey animal (which they may flush in their pursuit); not a recall question as was asked.