Quote: rich pallechio

Did the vet do a comprehensive allergy test? We did that with our dog, and he has been getting allergy shots for a little over a year now and we have a list of all the food and environmental allergies. His symptoms have cleared up.

The skin tests would be something the derm vet would do, so I'm thinking that a derm vet now (because my faith in a vet who keeps saying "food" when the affliction is come-and-go is slim to see-through) is the way to go.

Charles, different dogs react differently to different antihistamines, but again, I really think a derm vet is your best bet here.

Mike, thanks for getting on here. My hand needs a break and you know a lot about allergies.

Charles:

Here is a link that may help you. Looks like an up-to-date analysis of canine skin allergies causes and advice on some symptom relief. Not sure if you've tried everything listed in the article but hopefully this may be helpful to your dog.

http://www.alerchek.com/march_allergy_hiller_02.pdf

Best of luck.

Mike,
I'm responding below in caps to your questions - thanks for taking the time (twice apparently!)
Connie - I think I'll ask about a dermatologist, thanks again.

MIKE WROTE....
What is "itchy like hell"? Constant scratching/chewing? NOT CONSTANT, JUST MOST OF THE TIME In the middle of the night? Does she wake you up with her scratching? YES! GAK! How long have you had her? SINCE SHE WAS 7 WEEKS - SHE WAS 2 IN MARCH. When did she start itching? WHEN SHE WAS ABOUT 18 MOS. OLD You did 6 months of elimination diet? YES What protein sources have you used, and for how long? I THINK I LISTED THEM ABOVE - LAMB, OSTRICH, BISON WERE ALTERNATIVES TO THE CHICKEN, BEEF AND FISH Not itchy when you started raw? NO - WE STARTED RAW AT ABOUT A YEAR. SHE WAS FINE FOR 6 MONTHS. If you think it may be the chicken "pet quality chop" (sounds like "mystery meat"), did eliminating chicken stop the itching? NO...WE ELIMINATED THE BEEF FIRST, WAITED A MONTH, THEN THE SARDINES, THEN THE VARIOUS VEGGIES, THE SALMON OIL, THEN FINALLY THE CHICKEN. NOTHING WORKED. Why an "expensive premixed raw diet" vs. doing it yourself cheaper, with more control of the ingredients? WE THOUGHT THAT ED'S RECIPE MIGHT NOT BE BALANCED PROPERLY, AND THAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THE SKIN. HELL, WE'D TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE. (THE EXPENSIVE STUFF ISN'T STOPPING IT EITHER)

Your premixed raw food seems to have a very short and innocuous list of ingredients ". . . formulated by our breeder supposedly with joint health in mind - she's had a government grant and worked with dietitians and several generations of x-rays. . ." Without even addressing whether it's an appropriate concern for a puppy, I don't see any particular ingredients that are supposedly for joint health. YA - I DUNNO THE THEORY EITHER. BUT SHE'S BEEN STUDYING GSD DIETS FOR SEVERAL GENERATIONS APPARENTLY. EVERYBODY IN ABOUT 3 SHUTZHUND CLUBS IN MY AREA FEED HER STUFF AND SWEAR BY IT. I CAN'T STAND HOW MUCH IT MAKES THEM POOP.

Some suggestions:

Start a log of what you're feeding and what you observe in the way of your dog's condition and apparent reaction to diet/supplement and environmental changes. What changes seem to be working (or making it worse) today may not seem the same 6 month from now. YUPPERS. TOTALLY DID THAT DUDE.

Supplement with salmon oil (my 65# female gets 4 pumps/day of this) and vitamin E. THAT'S IN ED'S RECIPE. THAT'S WHERE WE STARTED. ONLY FOR A SHORT TIME DID I REMOVE THE SALMON OIL.

I'm a true believer in yogurt (i.e., probiotcs - the beneficial bacteria), and for your dog's size and problems, I work her up to at least 1 cup/day of plain yogurt and/or kefir. The more "active cultures" you can find, the better. I use Cascade yogurt with 8, Liteway kefir with 10. WE TRIED YOGURT AT ONE POINT CUZ MY SON-IN-LAW SUGGESTED IT. PERHAPS WE DIDN'T TRY IT FOR LONG ENOUGH. I THINK WE DID IT ABOUT A WEEK OR SO. I COULD ADD IT IN AGAIN - THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTION. My non-medical, non-expert diagnosis is that you and I have dogs whose immune systems don't function properly. I THINK YOU MAY BE RIGHT. Maybe it's genetics, breeding, problems in early development. . . take your pick. COULD BE THE VACCINATIONS, TOO EH? The bottom line (short version) is that their immune system does properly shut off it's immunological response to what it perceives as threat to the system (such as inhalant/environmental sources and rarely food) and the most noticeable symptom that we see is the inflammation, e.g., red ears and skin. Probiotics promote immune system health, but they won't "fix" anything, so daily supplementation is required. AGAIN, GOOD SUGGESTION - I'M GONNA GO GET ME SOME YOGURT.

Talk to your vet about and antihistamines and prednisone. I've used OTC Benadryl (cheap, didn't do squat) and Hydroxyzine (Atarax) which helped with my previous dog, but not this one. I'm a strong advocate in the very limited use of prednisone, especially to get severe itching under control and for occasional flareups. I've never seen anything work better to stop scratching and chewing. I experimented to find the minimal dose that would eliminate about 80-90% of the symptoms. That way, the dog gets some immediate relief and you can still see whether other treatment or diet changes are having an effect. With my current dog, 2.5mg once or twice a day will do wonders. I think that's a safe dose for short term use. WILL DO. I'LL ALSO SEE IF A SPECIALIST CAN DIAGNOSE ANYTHING ELSE.


THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND SUGGESTIONS. I DON'T FEEL QUITE SO BAD NOW, IN A WAY. MAYBE THE DOG WILL JUST ITCH FOREVER. AS I SAID, HER SKIN'S NOT RAW OR BLEEDING OR ANYTHING AND HER FUR LOOKS GOOD.

I'LL KEEP Y'ALL POSTED IF WE GET A DERMATOLOGY DIAGNOSIS.

This happened to a friend of mine...her GSD started itching really bad...she took her to a derm and the dog had NO food allergies, only seasonal (grasses, weeds, trees). Everything you have done with the food could just be un-necessary. You dog may be fine with all foods.

My friend had to give her dog an allergy shot every day...and this year it has been much better. They said she may have to do the shots again, but if so, it could be even better by next year, until eventually, hopefully, the shots aren't necessary.

I would do the dermatologist!

Hey everybody - thanks for the advice about the itching. I took her to a vet specializing in doggy skin... ha ha...anyway he noted right away that the bumps and such were not on the top of her back, so it was not food allergies (duh...that could have saved me 6 months of elimination-diet-hell). Either she was allergic to the bacteria on her own skin, or it was a contact allergy. Since she itched the same in every location, even when we went several places for weekends and week-long vacation this year, he assumed the former. A round of powerful antibiotics X 2 weeks proved the case. The dog got 100% better.

Unfortunately, we'll have to deal with this for the rest of her life, and I still think it's related to the vaccinations. He said I should bath her weekly, and use "Selsun" shampoo which is cheaper than the veterinary shampoos with the same ingredients. Occasionally, when it gets really bad, she'll have to go back on antibiotics.

Anyway, thanks again for all your advice - it really spurred me on to going to get the right diagnosis and treatment. This board is awesome.

 Quote: charles bois

Hey everybody - thanks for the advice about the itching. I took her to a vet specializing in doggy skin... ha ha...anyway he noted right away that the bumps and such were not on the top of her back, so it was not food allergies (duh...that could have saved me 6 months of elimination-diet-hell). Either she was allergic to the bacteria on her own skin, or it was a contact allergy. Since she itched the same in every location, even when we went several places for weekends and week-long vacation this year, he assumed the former. A round of powerful antibiotics X 2 weeks proved the case. The dog got 100% better.

Unfortunately, we'll have to deal with this for the rest of her life, and I still think it's related to the vaccinations. He said I should bath her weekly, and use "Selsun" shampoo which is cheaper than the veterinary shampoos with the same ingredients. Occasionally, when it gets really bad, she'll have to go back on antibiotics.

Anyway, thanks again for all your advice - it really spurred me on to going to get the right diagnosis and treatment. This board is awesome.

Sounds like folliculitis if he gave you Selsun.

Did he mention inflammation/infection of the hair follicles?

By the way, the "top of the back" rule for food allergies is far from universal.

I'm really glad you had such great results. I'm curious: were there any bumps on the edges of the ear flaps?

 Quote: Charles Bois

Either she was allergic to the bacteria on her own skin, or it was a contact allergy.

Just want to point out to anyone else reading this that contact allergies in dogs are very rare. They are the last thing to suspect, unless you're a derm vet who recognizes them.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/404_pets.html

As we always point out here, flea hypersensitivity is #1 by far, then inhalant/environmental, then food (far behind), and then finally contact allergies.

A derm vet is much better at assessing the allergy type visually that any regular vet, IME. Most vets just do not have allergy expertise and definitely not enough to differentiate the types visually.

Smart move, Charles, to bite the bullet and see a derm vet.

Ya smart move...on your smart advice! Thanks!

He didn't mention about the hair follicles - but I didn't ask him for a specific scientific name for the problem either.
The shampoo he gave us to try has sulfur and salicylic acid (and so does "Selsun" but not "Selsun Blue" apparently)

Not sure about the bumps on the "edges" of her ear flaps, but she did have them inside her ears (at the tops - where you can see).

We don't have any fleas in my neighbourhood (and lots of people don't believe that, but honestly...I've had dogs and cats for 40 years and seen OODLES of fleas and dealt with major flea problems. In 7 years of living here, 3 dogs and 3 cats...we've never seen a single, solitary flea.)

Contact allergies didn't make much sense to me either...but I never thought of the skin bacteria thing...and neither did our regular vet.

I just can't believe how the dog went from going insane with itching to just totally fine and chillin' here beside me on the couch...in just 3 weeks. It was a long 12 months of suffering before that.

Isn't it huge?

Even though my (now gone) 33-severe-allergies dog was never 100% "cured," she was able to sleep, she got no more ear infections (she was deaf when I got her from repeated ear infections), and she had had no more stinky itchy yeast overgrowth. Just some seasonal itching.

Took a while and cost some money, but what a huge relief.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/07/2008 02:33 PM)
Edit reason: typos