Hi Alyssa, unfortunately bringing him to the vet is NOT an option. Just getting his hips x-rayed is nearly twice of what we can expect to cover from his adoption fee, and we still have to try and cover at least some of his existing expenses (heartworm test and preventative and transport costs, nothing big). I wish I could but I can not.

Jennifer, Yes it is the dog who will drag me around with his prong on - I can't even really handle him without it, he's too strong. I think you might be right, he doesn't roll over to appease me. Just for a belly rub.

Just tried massaging his hips and legs and see what happens. He submitted happily to the massage, tail relaxed, licked his lips a few times. I tried to gently get in to his hip joints. Then I took his right hind leg (he was standing) and folded it up. It was hard to fold because he was kind of flexing against me, but he let me do it a couple times, then I kind of stretched his leg out behind him. Then I tried to bend it again but he turned around, kind of licked at my mouth once, then sat down. At this point my other male (not the pup) had come over to see what I was doing and he has a "let's play all the time" attitude, and they started "mouth fencing" - lol I don't know what to call it. So he seemed pretty relaxed about the whole deal.

Showing the belly is either submission, or total comfort ( i feel so secure as leader I will show my belly to get scratched.)
It can also be used as code (in some dogs) for "hey slave, scratch here". Just as a wagging tail doesn't mean a dog is friendly EVERY time, there are other signs that mean different things when used in a different context.
I will also add that nearly every dog I have seen with a slow sit or down was pushed into it when they didn't comply. That is a good example of compulsion. Try using motivation (food he REALLY likes with NO distractions) and a marker/treat immediately, then rapidly repeat the exercise. Faster you jump from command to command the better. Try to keep his attention and enthusiasm for about 3 minutes.
I'd start over - learning phase (no corrections, just leading/luring him into the commands using high HIGH value food) then move into corrections.
Good luck!

Hi Cameron, this dog has been through 3 levels of obedience training. Including one intensive course by a K9 trainer that was compulsion training with a prong collar, the other two classes were trained with food.

He will respond pretty enthusiastically for treats in the house. In class, higher value treats work well unless he is scared by somthing (like the ceiling mounted furnace starting up). The down command usually has to be repeated, though, but his stay is pretty good. Which is why I wasn't sure. Asking him to sit for something like going outside to pee, gets a blank look. He will sit with a leash pop. Asking him to sit while doing the heel exercise (when I stop) blank look. He does sit automatically when he sees the nail clippers, oddly. He will sometimes, not always, be reluctant to go in his crate when told, but he is a dog that is very sensitive to changes in his environment - and I often change his bedding. So it could be that: he's unsure and hesitating, or his hips hurt and he isn't looking forward to laying down - or he doesn't feel like going in. darn it, I wish I could read him better!

I could video a short (10 second) obedience practise session done without treats, and one done with treats. Would that help?

Sheesh, I feel so inept. For some reason this dog is a complete mystery to me. I've never felt so puzzled. thanks for all your help everyone.

I think that the description above of his training to date makes this even more of a good idea:

 Quote: Cameron Feathers

Try using motivation (food he REALLY likes with NO distractions) and a marker/treat immediately, then rapidly repeat the exercise. Faster you jump from command to command the better. Try to keep his attention and enthusiasm for about 3 minutes. ... I'd start over - learning phase (no corrections, just leading/luring him into the commands using high HIGH value food)
Good luck!

Reading him better will happen; so will bonding, and so will his confidence in you.

Have you done marker training before?

 Quote: angela burrell

I think he knows what "sit" means for example, so I guess I should be giving him a prong pop rather than pushing his butt down?

If you teach him what "sit" means, you will KNOW he knows.

You can teach him the way it's taught in the LB Basic Ob video (luring the dog into the sit with the high-value food tidbit raised above his face so his head tips back and his butt goes down).

I would mark when his butt hits the ground and then reward.

I vote with Connie. This dog is showing unsureness/fear. The dog has had correction based training (even pushing the butt down for a sit does NOT create confidence in learning/purely reactionary. Using marker training and reteaching the dog in this method of training will clear up confusion in the dog and his trust and bonding will become what it should be. His tempermant (genetic)will also play into this but this is, to me, is a great way to start. Get away from corrections except for pack behavior infractions.

Thanks everyone, I will definitely start the motivational training. From scratch.

Now, pack behaviour infractions - this is where I still need help. 3 areas. If he is reluctant to go in his crate. He will go in if I toss a treat. Should I just do this 100% of the time?

Second. At the door to go outside or come in. The dog is on leash. How should I get him to let me go through the door first? Use a treat to get him to sit? Am I on the right track or is this a pack behaviour thing. And when we are outside and he starts barking/trying to get at, neighbor's dog or cat? Prong collar corrections (what I am doing now) or just bring him in the house with no comment?

3rd thing, what specifically should I do if the dog growls at another dog or me. Rescue suggested squirting him with water.???

Thanks again all, I really appreciate it.

 Quote: angela burrell

If he is reluctant to go in his crate. He will go in if I toss a treat. Should I just do this 100% of the time?

Ivan does this too. Usually I just hold his collar firmly and wait a second. Once he realizes it is not optional, he goes in. THEN I toss a treat. Treat first it's bribery, second it's a reward. I don't like to bribe them at all...

 Quote: angela burrell

At the door to go outside or come in. The dog is on leash. How should I get him to let me go through the door first?

Open the door, give him the CHANCE to go through without you and when he does, calmly step in front of him to "block" him, then walk "through" him to get him to back up and give you your space. Use the leash to help guide/control (as in not let him run around you using the leash as a support rather than the actual correction. You want him to respect YOU and YOUR space, not simply do a pretty trick to go outside. The sit will come later (usually automatically and without being taught, I have found) once the dog understands that he is being made to respect your space - he sits to see your face while awaiting further instructions.

 Quote: angela burrell

And when we are outside and he starts barking/trying to get at, neighbor's dog or cat? Prong collar corrections (what I am doing now) or just bring him in the house with no comment?

Again, here you want the dog to RESPECT you and let you handle it. IMHO corrections will only serve to either confuse or further agitate the dog. You have to redirect him to YOU rather than just simply correct. Sometimes I will tap the hip closest to me while I give the correction (verbal and prong) the tap redirects his attention from the item in question and breaks the cycle of prey drive, etc, the correction speaks for itself. You have to make sure your timing is right though. If you are off, you will end up correcting the dog for looking at you. If he tries to get in front of you, again, BLOCK him. Step in front and make him back away from it (and you). If you are able to get after him before he goes after the item, and correct him for shifting his attention rather than playing catch up after you have lost it, you may find you don't NEED to get after him as much/hard.

 Quote: angela burrell

3rd thing, what specifically should I do if the dog growls at another dog or me. Rescue suggested squirting him with water.???

All you will get there is a pissed off wet dog. You want him to stop being aggressive because he respects YOU and that YOU don't want him to do it, not because he has been sprayed with water (which seems to have the opposite reaction, or causes a neurotic issue with fear of water/hoses)
I usually do the same thing here as well, get the dog to respect ME and back away from me. If the dog is being aggressive to another dog, I step in front and make my dog back away. If the dog responds aggressively at all to me, I deal with that, but for an overall lack of respect I usually block the dog and make him show respect by giving space.
Even here, though, I try to stop the issue before it starts. The minute my dog starts to stare, or show over - interest in the other dog, I correct THEN. BEFORE it escalates. until the rank/pack/leadership issues are addressed, I don't allow the dog to interact with other dogs at all. No looking, staring, etc. The reason is because the dog hasn't accepted my leadership yet. Until the dog will have total respect for me, I like to set the dog (and myself) up for success. It only helps to build better bonds later.

 Quote: angela burrell

Now, pack behaviour infractions - this is where I still need help. 3 areas. If he is reluctant to go in his crate. He will go in if I toss a treat. Should I just do this 100% of the time?

I still do this with Molly. You can phase out the treats if you want but I figure why not give her a bedtime treat. It doesn't hurt anything and it's something the dog can look forward to. I don't consider this a pack behavior thing because wolves don't have crates. Now if she flat refused to go in which she did once I just led her in by the collar and skipped the treat. She started to refuse the next night but when I reached for her collar she went in on her own so I gave her the treat.

If she growled however she'd get a correction she would remember for a long long time. That is a pack behavior thing. Not the reluctance to go in but refusing to do what she was told to do by me when she knows what "go to bed" means and growling at the pack leader is a definite no no.

 Quote:

Second. At the door to go outside or come in. The dog is on leash. How should I get him to let me go through the door first? Use a treat to get him to sit? Am I on the right track or is this a pack behaviour thing.

With Molly I taught the "sit" first with treats then gave the command at the door. For Molly going outside is a big thing so at the door I would tell her to sit then start to open the door. If she broke the sit I'd close the door and make her sit again. After I did this enough she got the idea that the door won't be opened until she is sitting. If she tried to rush through I'd either close the door in her face or even on her lightly (just enough to hold her) until she struggled to go backward then shut it and give the sit command. Again rinse and repeat until she got the idea that the door will not open until she is sitting politely.

 Quote:

3rd thing, what specifically should I do if the dog growls at another dog or me. Rescue suggested squirting him with water.???

Squirting with water works but I don't do it because I don't want Molly to hate water. Playing in water = bath. I don't want to get her out of that idea. Makes life with her flea allergies a lot easier.