Quote: stephanie biros

You say if someone is approaching him directly, that's when he growls. If they're approaching him directly, are they staring at him? Have you noticed a trend in that regard? Does it seem like if a stranger is approaching you and looking at the dog, that's when he growls, whereas if they ignore him initially (like the lady in the park)he's fine with them? I'm not one of the experts, but I recall Cesar Milan saying whenever he greets a new dog he'll watch it out of the corner of his eye but he never stares directly at it for the first moments of meeting. It's considered challenging to the dog.

If the person that approaches him gets too close that is when he growls. This usually comes when I have already told the person that he is not friendly. They keep coming, and he growls when they offer a had to sniff, but not until then.

I get the "Oh my God, what a beautiful dog blah blah blah." and then they want to pet him. They usually are looking at him as they approach.

All the questions you all have asked makes me realize how much I may or may not be noticing. The above answers on all my posts are to the best of my knowledge. I need to be more alert myself as well.

Fair enough Daniel,
Start taking notes, and let us know. Everyone here will help as they can.
Of particular interest will be; how he sets his tail, does he look the 'threat(?)' straight up front in the eyes or does he slightly evert his gaze, is the head held high or lowered a little, is he stiff legged or grouched a bit, does he raise his hackles, is his eyes wide or are they narrowed. Whew, thats a start.
And lastly, but not least, what do you think and feel it is and about whats going on?

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

I don't know if this will shed any light on the subject or not, but I thought I would add it even though it may be a little off topic.

Last night at the park Chief and I were working on the building Drive and focus techniques. Lately, I have been talking him near a field next to a dog park for distraction. Chief was on a leash, but I did not have it in my hands.

A little off-leash dog came running over to us so I put chief in a sit, walked over to him, and grabbed his leash. The little dog saw the Orbee I had in my hand and ran over to me and tried to take it. Chief came out of his sit and tried to get the little dog. I held the Orbee over Chief's head and told him to "sit"; he went back into a sit ignoring the little dog. This, of course, while the owner of the little dog was yelling for it to "come".

I had never seen Chief act so possessive of a toy, but that Orbee is the only ball we use to build drive and focus with so I think it might be special to him.

Don't know if any of this helps, but it might give some insight into the way I am working with him. It might help identify if I am doing someting wrong.

I am going to answer this from a working dog perspective. If the dog is a pet then I would personally do the same thing, but others might not. I didn't read much of the thread other than the original post, so if I am missing information, blame it on my laziness

Don't force the issue. He doesn't want to be pet, then don't force him to be pet. Not all dogs are born to be social. The more you force the issue the bigger of an issue it becomes. He is entering maturity and he doesn't like people he doesn't know. Let him make the decision whether he wants to like someone or not. I have a dog here that hates people for 2-3 days before she'll even relax around them. Another day or 2 and they might be able to pet her without her being anxious or barking at them if the stars line up correctly.

If you correct a young dog for this you run the risk of them associating the correction with the person they are unsure about. The problem here becomes a catch 22, as you are essentially reaffirming to the dog that this person causes unpleasantness, which then escalates the issue.

Have people ignore your dog. If there is a bite-risk, get the dog used to a muzzle. Expose the dog to more controlled situations where people will ignore the dog and not make eye contact at all.

If you see improvement then you know the dog just needs exposure, and may never be a social dog but will get used to it. If the problem worsens or continues, then introduce control into the situation. But the control should be established well away from any situations that could elicit aggression from the dog. Make sure the OB is SOLID before introducing it into these situations. If the OB is solid then introducing control is just a distraction. If the OB is not solid then it can confuse the dog and set you back. Correct for disobedience, not for the aggression.

Essentially your goal is not to make the dog like people, it is for the dog to remain controlled while he is not liking people. I am OK with my dog growling at people, I am not OK with lunging or barking. Sitting next to me growling tells the person that they shouldn't pet him. It is the dogs warning system. If he doesn't like people he doesn't like people and there is no sense in forcing the issue.

Now, if he grows up and learns to like people, then that's fine. Just don't force the issue. Forced issues just get worse and you end up going backwards.

 Quote:

I had never seen Chief act so possessive of a toy, but that Orbee is the only ball we use to build drive and focus with so I think it might be special to him.

My dogs get snippy with eachother for pack members trying to take their ball. I'd hate to see what happens if a strange dog does it. I wouldn't worry about that. Other dogs are outside of my pack. If they are stupid enough to take a ball from my dog then the owners should have leashed them.

Daniel,

i have a young (23 months) GSD that behaves in a very similar fashion ... however, your dog seems (i may be misreading) more confident than Porter (who was given to me by someone who couldn't handle his fearful personality). Porter does the same type growling in response to similar stimuli (also never more aggressive than a growl), but Porter does/did this out of insecurity and a lack of confidence around some people... usually the people that just insist on saying "hi" to my dog despite me telling them "he's not friendly". These are also the dorks that walk right up to Porter (as opposed to walking up to me) and are usually staring him right in the eyes while smiling at him

i originally handled the situation by giving him first a verbal correction, followed by a gentle but quick prong correction (Porter requires soft corrections) if he continued ... this did not get me very far! i found that the prong correction just made him more agitated and nervous (a common occurrence with a prong), so i ended up using the same type correction (a quick pop) on a nylon choke collar instead with some success.

the technique that really helped Porter overcome this involved more interference (protection) from me. i first learned to not give a flip about the approaching person's feelings, and if they continued to approach him once i had already politely told them that Porter isn't friendly, i responded (civilly) but a little less friendly myself.

**i think the major thing that helped Porter handle these people better is that i learned to use my body as a physical barrier between him and the other person. it doesn't take much ... if said dork continues to approach my dog after i've said no, i just have porter sit and i step in front of porter, between him and the person. now if this person wants to touch my dog he'd have to wrap his arm around me, something not many folks are gonna do

i don't know if this is appropriate for you and your dog (depending on your plans for your dog and his temperment), but the other thing i've done (mainly because i've tried to instill confidence in Porter regarding other people) is to work with people that CAN follow directs and are also not so eager to pet Porter. i'll have them quickly hand a treat to Porter, then i'll ask Porter to "go say hi", when he sniffs the other person (or moves up to them in any way) I will give him a treat. for a long while, i would lead Porter away from the other person right after this while telling them "thanks for helping out with his training" but not giving them another chance to try and pet/talk to/etc him. :wink: i NEVER allow him to approach another person without me leading/guiding him, i want him to understand that I have control of the entire situation. (i.e. i do not need backup help/growl!)

i'm excited to say that (knock on wood!) Porter has actually become rather outgoing with all sorts of people, dog savvy or not! i still show him that i control the situation with other people, but i can see that he is much more confident and actually curious about other people now ... he even seems to enjoy a good rump scratch from goofy passerby. i am very proud of him

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

If you correct a young dog for this you run the risk of them associating the correction with the person they are unsure about. The problem here becomes a catch 22, as you are essentially reaffirming to the dog that this person causes unpleasantness, which then escalates the issue.

i should have mentioned that!

this was a trick to work around. i do not want my 85 pound german shepherd growling at people since he goes with me just about anywhere, including a lot camping and mountain biking trips with a lot of people around that he needs to be chill with, but not necessarily "friendly" with.

with this in mind i have to correct for growling behavior (there was no redirecting him in the beginning). but i had to be careful that Porter was not making eye contact with the person making him nervous, i needed him to look at me. this is why it's so important to not allow the dog to walk up to the person ahead of the handler. if porter had tried to be brave and had walked up to sniff and then started growling (he would become overwhelmed) and i tried to correct him from behind, he would absolutely associate the person with the correction. anytime i had to correct Porter for growling, that was the end of any interaction between him and the other person ... if i needed to continue a conversation with the person, i would physically lead Porter to a spot a few feet behind me, put him in a down stay (still on lead), and walk back up to the person to finish talking. i think this helped Porter understand that the person was ok, but the growling was unacceptable and that is what he's being corrected for ... it helps to really pay attention to your dog and know his signals/body language!

luckily, when i started body blocking people, he rarely felt the need to growl at them. i never felt the need to make Porter become super duper outgoing, i just needed him to to accept other people speaking to me and being around us without being nasty about it ... the fact that Porter has actually grown to like most people is just a bonus :wink:

Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I have never had a dog that didn't like people so this is all new for me. Now that you mention it, Chief doesn't really seem to like for me to pet him. It seems more like he is tolerating the petting.(except on his chest, he like that) If he only tolerates me petting him then it must be extremely uncomfortable to have a stranger touch him.

I will continue to walk him around people, and even stop to talk to them, but I will insist that Chief not be petted from now on. He has never lunged at a person, but the thing that I was worried about the most is that he might start to get worse as he got older. I will keep a very close eye on how he behaves in these situations.

Kacie,

I agree that I may have to body block people from petting Chief. People act so incensed that your dog is not friendly. I have to admit it makes me feel like I have done something wrong, but I have tried to socialize Chief the best I know how.

He does not act fearful to me. (but that is one of the reasons I poste this question. It could be fear, but it doesn't strike me that way) It is more like he is perturbed that someone would actually try to touch his fur. He seems like a confident dog for the most part. He had a fearful bout with the trash truck when he was a puppy, but that has passed.

He acts very unsure when the vet has lead him away from me a couple of times, but he eventually will go with her. He always gives me that look as if to ask if its okay to go with her.

When my wife and I walk him together he gets real uncomfortable if we separate. It doesn't matter who has Chief, he is constantly looking to see where the other person went. If we walk him off leash at Fiesta Island, he will run back and forth between us if we get to far apart. I don't know if this is anxiety or his herding nature, or just and abundance of energy.

 Quote: Daniel A. Young

I agree that I may have to body block people from petting Chief. People act so incensed that your dog is not friendly. I have to admit it makes me feel like I have done something wrong, but I have tried to socialize Chief the best I know how.

your dog is just behaving like a typical GSD ... aloofness towards strangers is actually a part of their AKC breed standard, but a large majority of people are simply uneducated in canine behavior (and quiet frankly have an ass backwards view of how a dog should behave, i.e. little people in furry coats ). non-pack members touching and interacting with with our dogs is completely contradictory to their hardwired instincts, and some people just take it personally when a dog acts like a dog... oh well sounds like you guys are doing just fine :smile:

 Quote: Daniel A. Young

When my wife and I walk him together he gets real uncomfortable if we separate. It doesn't matter who has Chief, he is constantly looking to see where the other person went. If we walk him off leash at Fiesta Island, he will run back and forth between us if we get to far apart. I don't know if this is anxiety or his herding nature, or just and abundance of energy.

all my dogs behave like this when my BF (who my dogs have been raised with) and i are running, hiking, or mountain biking together ... it's not a nervous behavior, i've always viewed it as a pack behavior (they don't like the pack separating). i suppose it could also be a herding behavior depending on the dog.