Quote: Mike Armstrong

There are a whole lot of issues here

Yes.

Is there a liver or joint problem (I ask because of the Proanthozone)?

Also, what do the ear-flap edges look like? Smooth, or raggedy?

Have you smelled yeast?

Are the black dots flat?

Is there a lot of muzzle-rubbing?

When was the Demodex?

Sarcoptic mange can be body-wide but usually starts or is concentrated on the ears, elbows, chest, belly, and hocks.

I'm sorry if these have been answered.

Mike, thanks for the info on pollen.com, I just checked that out and WOW! The counts have been high here for a while, Monday are expected to be very high,in the 11's!

I do use kefir on and off, because sometimes the dogs will readily eat it and then some days not. I try to give it on an empty stomach, first thing in the morning. If Kaia won't eat it, then it goes in her morning meal. Not sure if that lessens the effectiveness, but that is what I do.
I will try giving more throughout the day as you suggested.
I have also found some Cascade that I use also just to vary the types and strains they get.

The prednisolone was 5 mg, given once every 24 hours for 3-5 days, to test if it actually helped her.
It did help, but I also wanted to see what she was like without it as well. At that time, I had not tried any antihistamines yet.
Being that Kaia already has had a lowered immune system, I was also thinking that if I could just use the antihistamines and not the steroids, that it would be better all the way around.
I have also played around with the dose of antihistamines to see if I could find the dose that would be effective yet not overkill.
Now that I know that the pollen counts are going to be really high on Monday, I will for sure give her 2 in the morning and 2 at night and see how that goes. If I need a higher dose, I will ask vet how much more I could give, say in the day if she appears worse.
I gave her 2 yesterday before our walk in the morning and it seemed to help.

I have noticed that the times that the dogs itch most is in the morning(sometimes in the middle of the night too.)
and at bedtime. They are in the bedroom with me, so I see and hear all kinds of chewing licking etc.
Some nights have been worse than others.

Connie, the vet prescribed the proanthozone as an antioxidant, given at morning meal and evening meal. No liver or joint problem that I know of.

She had the demodex when she was right around 6 months and it happened right after she had her spay surgery.
Luckily, it was just a localized area, that I treated with the borax/peroxide/water baths. It took several months but eventually went away.

Her ears look like a very slight fur loss in a few places, at the base of ear by the side near the pinna area, and then I noticed in the sunlight that there is a thinning of hair in a few spots in the surface of the ear in the back. It is very subtle though and doesn't look obvious.
The edges don't appear raggedy yet, but I have been watching for that.

Kodi is the one with these black little specks that are just under the skin. I think that while they appear just under the surface of the skin,they feel just slightly raised.
I need to shave his fur down there because it is really hard to see as he has so much of it, being a long coat.
I began to look because the fur started to change to a reddish brown. He also had some little red pustules, so I tried a dab of the same chlorhexidine lotion on them.
His skin got really irritated from that, so I tried to just rinse that off and let it heal for a few days.
But these black things have always been there.
Can't wait to see what the vet has to say about what these are.
As Sarah suggested it could be some form of a staph infection.
We need a skin scraping to find out.

Both seem to scratch the underside of their chin, the top of the head and by their ears. Also, Kaia scratches her muzzle, more lately.
The both scratch hocks, feet, belly, forearms, backside and base of tail and their tails too.
Her Belly had quite a few red bumps all over, but they seemed to go away with the lotion. They come and go.

Lastly, I apologize for the extremely long post.

Hi Joyce - I feel your pain! I have been through this with 2 goldens and it's NOT fun! I had the first golden and she had bad allergy/skin problems. When she was 9, we got Kasey and I thought there was no way I'd end up with 2 - WRONG! The oldest, Nona, died of a kidney tumor a year ago. Her immune system was shot after all the drugs - especially the high doses of cortisone the vets gave her.

So I decided to skip the regular vets with Kasey and go straight to a derma vet. Boy what a difference! I know it sounds expensive, but in the long run, it's less because they know what they're doing from just looking at the skin. She had Kasey figured out on the first visit. We did do skin testing and he was allergic to 45 of the 75 allergens she tested him for. He's on allergy shots - which are not that expensive really. But it is definitely worth it to skip the regular vets with this skin stuff - they do not know enough and just keep trying to deal with the symptoms instead of the cause!

The symptoms you describe are exactly the things that Kasey deals with - the black spots, the red bumps, the itching face, biting paws and back and rump - all of it. You should definitely have them on flea control though - that is the first thing she made me do - Frontline is the derma vet's favorite. It kills fleas a lot better than Revolution - it's better for ticks, but not for fleas. We bathe once a week, and use Frontline every 3 - I hate putting that on him, but one flea bite can send these allergy dogs into a bad cycle of biting/chewing which leads to open skin, which leads to the infections. I tried all kinds of natural flea protection and nothing was effective enough to keep them ALL off.

Most derma vets don't like to use cortisone on a regular basis, whereas regular vets don't have much alternative because they are treating only the symptoms. So it's much better to get at the cause and avoid the use of the cortisone. As for the antihistimines, the dose for your size dogs,for the chlorpheniramine is 3 tablets (12 mg) up to 3 times a day, so you could up that and see if that does a better job of helping. It takes the edge off for Kasey - he gets it on a regular basis while we wait for the allergy shots to start helping.

Hang in there - all of us who have this problem know how frustrating it is to listen to chewing and scratching and not be able to help!

Thanks for your post Lori!
Well we just got back from the vet and Kodi's little black specks are a very small bacterial infection. But what I didn't see coming was that he also has a bunch of yeast cells present!
We are actually going to try to treat it topically first, rather then go with antibiotics or antifungal meds.
I am relieved that the vet really doesn't think it is sarcoptic mange because he said that both would be scratching constantly.
I have some medicated shampoo, and wipes that I am going to use to see if I can get rid of it.
It shocks me that my two very young dogs have allergies already!
In fact, the pollen counts are so high to day, as the wind is blowing 30 mph today, I have decided to have a day of rest, inside, away from the heavy allergens today,
No walks today, just staying inside for play time.
Incidentally, both are not scratching very much today, both have had baths and are sleeping peacefully!
I guess staying inside was a wise decision after all.
After it rains, it should help dampen down the pollens and help a little bit anyway.
In the meantime, I will do what I can to keep building their immune systems and if need be, get a derm vet for the future.


Last night I was reading up on Revolution, as well as topical treatments for fleas/ticks etc.
I have to say that the side effects of these chemicals is really very scary to me.
At first when I thought that Kodi and Kaia might have sarcoptic mange, I just wanted to get them free and clear and and in a moment of panic, I was all ready to administer it to them.
But upon reading, I feel that these chemicals are not good at all for our animals.
I did some more research, and found a site that looks highly promising for riding our dogs from fleas, mites, ticks etc.
Please check this out and see what you think.
I listened to a radio talk show excerpt that I got off of the
site: Shirley's Wellness Cafe.
If you look on the page and click on the part that talks about natural remedies for fleas/ticks. The product is called:
"Best Yet"
Then I went to this site for the actual info about this product:
go to : http://www.cedarcide.com ( having trouble getting this underlined. This function doesn't seem to be working, I tried)

It is cedar oil from the Juniperus Virginana tree.
Apparently, this stuff kills fleas on contact and you can treat the animals, your yard, and also use it for keeping mosquitos away.
There are many testimonials on the page and I highly encourage you to read them.
I found that listening to this excerpt from the radio show I found on Shirley's Wellness Cafe was very encouraging because you get to hear how this kind of cedar oil works and why.
Apparently, not just any cedar oil works as well as this specific one.
At the Cedarcide store site, you can read all about the different products that they have and I didn't think the prices were bad at all considering what the chemical spot treatments cost and they will cause no harm to your dogs or pets.
It is purely a matter of preference and I certainly mean no disrespect to you if you still want to use Frontline.

Just thought I would share this info with you if you want to check it out.
I am going to get some and see how it works. They have a kit that will treat the dogs, the house and the yard, so I am eager to try it and when I do, I will be sure to write about it.
Thanks again to everyone giving me their input!

So the vet thinks that both dogs are exhibiting symptoms of allergies only?

BTW, bacteria and yeast are often hand-in-hand; either one can "open the door" to an overgrowth of the other.

(Allergies can be to mildew and mold and dust mites as easily as tree/plant pollen.)

Can you tell us what the topicals are? Also, I have some bathing-with-topicals suggestions, and can pass them along a bit later.

Certainly going natural is a good choice whenever possible but I just wanted to pass on a word of warning.

Essential oils are extremely potent and can be toxic just like other chemicals. Just because it is natural does not mean it is totally safe.

It is an eye irritant, skin irritant, and can cause irritation to the mucous membranes with heavy inhalation.

I do use cedar oil in small amounts in my mosquito spray, but heavy use in the house, yard and on the animal itself could very well add up to toxic levels of the oil.

Edited by JessicaKromer (03/23/2009 04:26 PM)
Edit reason: I really just mean this as a warning, NOT an attack...

Joyce, I searched Shirley's Wellness for mention of this product. Did you find this specific company* (Cedarcide) on that site, or mainly the various articles about cedar?









*
http://www.cedarcide.com/productguide.asp

Neem oil is also someting you could try as a way to treat skin issues and help with bugs. You can add a little of the neem oil to their regular shampoo or make a spray using the dried leaves to make a strong tea.

It doesn't smell good at all a little bit like rotten onions.
but it does work well. I use it regularly for Nico by adding some to her shampoo. I had also used it as a plant spray to get rid of aphids and it did work.

It Should not be used with pregnant females.

I also wanted to list one other beef with that guys site.
Any product that claims it is a pesticide and KILLS insects/anthropods must be registered with the EPA and go through some pretty rigorous testing in order to get that number.

All Natural products that claim to REPEL insects are exempt from the process.

For example, my mosquito spray is called Buzz off and the only claim made on the packaging is that bugs don't like it. It uses only ingredients from the EPA safe and exempt lists and can then be labeled like a cosmetic.

On his website he is clearly making claims that his products KILL all sorts of things, but when I searched for the EPA information it was listed as exempt on the MSDS information sheets.

I do realize that essential oils need to be used with much caution. I accept the advice given, and will do some more research as well. It is a very interesting product, and I do plan on checking it out further.
Was anyone able to listen to the excerpt from the Holistic Pets and Vets radio show, where the host actually talks to the owner of Cedarcide company? He does explain how it works and why.
I am not trying to defend him or his product whatsoever.
Just saying that he seems to answer these questions.
Just thought that I would pass it on and certainly, I take heed to your cautions.
It is just something that I found to be very interesting and worth taking a deeper look at.

Connie, I am using the Malaseb shampoo and also the Malaseb pledgets for Kodi.
I currently have Kodi on a variety of stuff already from my vet.
Some Heel brand Allergy, which is homeopathy. Plus some chinese herbs for allergies as well.
Plus the Proanthozone, so far the combination of these does seem to be helping. Plus Kaia is on the chlorpheniramine,it has reduced her itching.
I am actually surprised at how staying indoors today has helped both of their itching, as well as the baths. Pollens outside are in the 11's today which is very high.
I also have been wiping down their paws with baby wipes before coming in the house.
Also, we just had our ducts cleaned out by a company and had some antimicrobial spray put into the ducts.
That was last week, and that could also be why we are seeing an improvement. I have been vacuuming daily as well as steam mopping the floors, to lessen those allergens inside our house as well.
Just trying a multi-pronged approach to see if that will help.

I would love to hear more about your bathing tips Connie.