Quote: Peter Marek

Yes a crate can keep the situation from happening. What about marking?

Training issue.

My NEUTERED male is the marking-est little bassid in the world. More so or equal to almost every intact male dog that I know. He does not lift his leg in the house.

 Quote: Peter Marek

On the topic of neutering....

Yes a crate can keep the situation from happening. What about marking?

In all honesty, I would prefer NOT to neuter him either this early. The vet seems to think that it has no impact on his development which I didn't understand. I would have thought that it WOULD have an impact.

The vet is wrong.

And marking is a training issue. Also, plenty of neutered dogs do it, too, and must be trained not to.

If you really cannot guarantee protection of the female, then that trumps everything (IMHO),but I'll bet that you can, and allow the pup's long-bone growth to be done, at least.

 Quote: Peter Marek

On the topic of neutering....

Yes a crate can keep the situation from happening. What about marking?

In all honesty, I would prefer NOT to neuter him either this early. The vet seems to think that it has no impact on his development which I didn't understand. I would have thought that it WOULD have an impact.

The vet is wrong.
I'd be happy to send you links from studies conducted at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary College that PROVE that early neutering (and potentially, neutering at all) has detrimental effect.

Actually, I'll just put it right here:
http://saova.org/articles/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf

Marking is not so common a behavior as people would like to believe. It is also a behavior that persists in many neutered dogs.

Vets push for spaying and neutering for three main reasons.

First, and most honorably, they want to prevent the birth of unwanted puppies. Responsible pet ownership can accomplish the same thing, without the health risks to your dogs.

Second, it's what they were taught at vet school. New studies come out all the time, and vets don't necessarily follow up on that sort of thing.

Lastly, and least honorably, because they make money off of the proceedures.

Vets also tell us that raw food will kill our dogs.

Yet, I know nobody personally that has had a dog sickened or killed by a raw diet.
I have several friends whose dogs were killed by kibble... sometimes the very kibble that the vet recommended.

Sometimes the vet doesn't know best.
Sometimes they do.
It's incumbent on you to do your own research and make your own decisions.

This goes for vets, "training experts", professional trainers, web advice, used car salesmen, the new diet fad, that adjustable rate mortgage...
I'm sure you apply common sense in every other aspect of your life, and take time to educate yourself.

Don't make the mistake of abandoning an effective and successful approach when it comes to decisions regarding your dog.

If you have an intact female and don't think you can keep them completely separate then you probably should neuter your male. The world doesn't need any more "oops" litters.

However, if your female is spayed...there's no problem.

My male is almost 3, he's intact, and he has NEVER marked in the house. That's a training issue, IMO, and not a neuter issue.

Ideally, if you must neuter, waiting until your dog is 2 or 3 years allows him to develop properly. People have very strong opinions on this and there is a lot of information out there, both for and against. Doing a search of this forum will give you some insight.

My .02

I just read through the PDFs that Tracy provided. What an eye opener. I really had NO CLUE at all. As a result I have just gotten off the phone with the Vet and have told them that the procedure that was scheduled for tomorrow is tentative and no longer firm - pending further investigation.

 Quote: Peter Marek

On the topic of neutering....

Yes a crate can keep the situation from happening. What about marking?

In all honesty, I would prefer NOT to neuter him either this early. The vet seems to think that it has no impact on his development which I didn't understand. I would have thought that it WOULD have an impact.

Your inclination is 100% correct - neutering your pup this early will absolutely have an effect on his mental AND physical development. Tracy posted some excellent links - you should print them out and bring them to your vet if he can't understand your reasoning for waiting. Marking can, in most cases, be easily discouraged and controlled by proper training and leadership, as with most behaviors.

I have a pet male that I signed a neuter contract on, but I waited until he was 2 y/o to have it done, so that he could mature naturally. He has grown into a lovely representative of his breed (RR) and compared to other male RRs we've met that were neutered young, he has a much more balanced bone structure and physique - he also has a much more mature temperament. I never had any issues with marking, or humping while he was intact.

Since your pup must live with a female, I'd definitely get him comfortable with crate training - and if you have ANY doubts that you'll be able to keep them separate, you could neuter when he is physically capable of reproducing, but that won't be until he's 6 months or so... he's still so very young... give him the opportunity to grow up a bit, and put the responsibility to avoid unplanned pregnancy firmly in your own court. JMHO

*I don't know much about professional trainers, but the one you described sounds a little sketchy to me as well... hope others keep the comments on that coming...

~Natalya

Heats are very short lived... stunted growth (mental and physical) are forever.

If you still desire to neuter him down the road, you ALWAYS can.

You cannot, however, UNneuter him.

I do think the trainer was an ass not to talk with you and explain his position on neutering, rather than simply walk away.
That really shows the sort of trainer he is... he prefers NOT to impart knowledge, and not to explain or discuss things with his clients.
"It's my way, or the highway, and if you disagree, then you aren't worth my time".

Exactly the sort of trainer a person new to the sport DOES NOT need to be with.

Oh where to begin..... I guess I'll address your concerns one by one.... there is just so much wrong with what you just wrote!

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Hi folks!

Hi Peter!

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Apparently he is fairly well known and has trained many champions. Although this is what HE says and when I spoke to another Shutzhund trainer who I know for a fact has won many championships says he's just a handler and hasn't seen him compete.

Lesson #1: There are lots of trainers that train high level dogs and have competed at high levels, who's methods I would never use on my own dogs. Don't take anything a trainer says as gospel. If it doesn't "feel right," it probably isn't right.

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This was determined by having Kaiser approach him while he was using a tug to solicit prey behavior. When this happened Kaiser decided that he would rather not engage and move away from him.

He commented that he would have liked to see Kaiser get out of the car as if he had been there before and engage in play.

Yes, we all like seeing that. Reality is, it doesn't always happen.

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I asked if I should attend and he said No, the idea is to build confidence in Kaiser when you are not there.

What a load of shit. 16 weeks old?? The dogs confidence should come through bonding WITH YOU (caps were accidental, hit caps lock, but the emphasis applies lol).

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On one note, what he says sounds reasonable

I could fill your head with the stupidest ideas and still make it sound totally reasonable :-) When it comes to dog training, "reasonable" isn't always "the best way."

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I find it difficult to believe that a 16 week old puppy that has been used to playing/training only with me, would enthusiastically jump out of a car and begin playing/bite work with a total stranger.

It happens. But you are working a dobie. Not a Malinois. Finding a really great competition level working dobie pup is difficult.

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Also, Kaiser will be neutered this Friday. We have no intention of breeding, we also have a 10.5 year old female lab in the house as well and do not want puppies, or Kaiser marking in the house.

If you really want to neuter him, wait till 3 years old. Unless you want to just throw away this whole working dog idea altogether. You are working a dobe, you want to stack all the odds in your dogs favor, you want his hormones to develop maturity.

Marking in the house is a training issue not a surgical one. Not having accidental puppies is as simple as separating the male from the female when she goes into heat.

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As he gets older he will have more confidence because of the exposure that he is getting and that he is maturing. Is that wrong or is the trainer correct that at this age he should be super confident?

Ideally you want a super confident pup. But he's not unworkable because he's not, its just something you have to work at. Exposure to lots of environments, maturity, TESTICLES, play tug with him in as many different places as possible, let him see and hear as much as possible, let him watch adult dogs training on the training field, play tug on lots of surfaces. Let him be successful and WIN THE TUG OFTEN. With maturity the rest will get better.

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Another thing I think about is why would I want Kaiser to engage in play/bite work with someone else without being told it's "ok'. In my mind, he acted appropriately in that regard although he could have just stood there rather than backing away (that I attribute to age).

Faulty logic. For a working dog you want a dog to be high in drive. A high drive dog doesn't "think" about "who" he's playing with, he is stimulated by the movement of the tug and the natural instinctual desire to chase. A dog that doesn't react that way indicates lack of nerve or lack of drive, or both. In an ideal world, your pup will come out of the truck at 8 weeks old going crazy for a rag he's being taunted with and be completely oblivious to everything else. That would indicate strong nerves (not caring about who the helper is or what environment he is in, he just wants to work) and good drive (instinctual desire to chase/bite).

Your dog doesn't do that, but that doesn't mean you can't work at it and BUILD drive. He might not be taking you to world championships but you can learn with him and have fun TO THE EXTENT THE DOG IS CAPABLE. Don't resort to retarded and/or abusive training methods to make your dog what he isn't. A dog like that needs a patient helper that is good at bringing out the potential in young dogs.

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My aspirations are to do PPD and Shutzhund with him. Now, I'm not interested in having him attain titles as much as I am interested in doing the work so that we can both have fun with each other - if something comes out of that then it's a bonus but certainly not the focus or goal.

He might turn out to be really great, he might not. Keep this attitude. You went with a dobe, so the odds are stacked against you unless you really did your research in finding a good driven working line dobe. But with the right trainer and guidance you can certainly unleash whatever potential he has.

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What do you recommend my course of action should be?

Find a trainer that you like, that trains in a way you feel comfortable with. This is tough, because you are new and don't know what you're looking for, so you are likely going to run into 1 of 2 problems: You are either going to over-question everything, and this is fine if you have a good trainer that explains it to you. Or, you are going to fall for what a crappy trainer tells you because "it makes sense." You need to find the balance. Of course, it's not like there are 50 trainers around either, some times you have to drive a long distance to get to train with someone worth training with.

You need a good helper. Someone patient, that understands dobes, puppies, and is good at bringing the dog out. Keep bringing him everywhere. Play tug everywhere. Make the dog think that every time he comes out of that crate or vehicle he's supposed to be looking for the tug, (or a puppy bite rag ideally). You want your pup to be able to tug with ANYONE, but, the average person isn't going to do anything positive for your pup, so its best to leave bitework to someone that understands your pup.

Bare in mind he is 16 weeks old, he is probably TEETHING. Don't tug with a teething pup! It hurts, and it makes them not enjoy biting.

OK. My 1.2 cents worth. I have a small companion dog, not working dog. I am not an experienced trainer or handler.

However, I want the best for my pet and perused this forum for more than a year and taken their advice. When I have done something contrary to the advice here it generally backfires. So please read everything here that you can.

My pet (female) is neutered. She went thru one heat cycle and was spayed at about 10 months. Although, ideally, you don't have to neuter them, it is what was best for us. This is the other side of the fence.

However, I think at the age of your dog, you have a lot of time to investigate for yourself and shouldn't get your dog neutered just yet.

Years ago (20, I think), I had a male boxer. I sent him to training and it was the kind where you also keep going back to train with them. At the time, the trainer and the vet thought all dogs should be fixed. My vet said he should be fixed before he had developed "adult male behavior". I had him fixed. To this day I wish I hadn't. He was never the same dog after that. It changed his entire personality. Among other things, he became lazy and just laid around a lot.

So, here are two sides from companion owner.

But at any rate, I think you have a lot of time left to make a decision.

And if you do have him neutered, maybe you could wait until he is grown.

ps

I am more knowledgeable now, but I would NEVER leave my animal with someone to train without me being there.