I've erased like five attempts at a post here.

I wish I could come up with something prophetic that would put this all in perspective.

I can't. This just isn't something that I ever worry about. Just the same as most people probably never worry about their dog choking on kibble. Both can happen.

Only been doing this for 2 1/2 years. The only problem with a bone that we've ever had was one getting wedged sideways in between his teeth across the roof of his mouth. I called him to me and un-wedged the bone. Handed it back to him and he ate it.:smile:

All the risk that you are thinking about here are a normal part of deciding to switch. I'm tempted to go back and look up my worrying posts when I first switched.

I just can't take seriously anyone that has created a vegan canine lobby.

There are well over 10,000 members on a rawfeeding list that I belong to. Been on it for about 2 years, +/-. Never heard of any of the bone problems you are asking about happening to anyone's pets.

If a dog chokes on kibble, it is a terrible accident. The owners will more than likely feed the same food to their next dog. They don't know any other way. They think that is just what you feed you dog. There is no way around it in their minds, therefore the food is really a non-issue.

I believe this is where most of the hype comes from when you do hear about a bone accident. For some reason, raw feeding doesn't have any "get out of jail" cards like kibble does.

People that have never heard of raw feeding don't have any options if there is a problem with their kibble or canned food. Since there is no where else to go, in their mind it might not be the foods fault.

For those that DO know about raw feeding, there ARE other feeding options. I think that makes it easier for people to be critical about raw feeding when they hear about or have a problem.

Does that make any sense at all?

It really is how you perceive the risk. If you perceive any at all.

 Quote: lori hall

So I decided to do my own research from the people who would see these bones getting stuck and puncturing digestive tracts. We have 3 emergency vet hospitals in our city, so I thought that would be the best place to start! So I went to each of them and asked them a few questions:

Lori, you are to be commended for taking on such thoughtful research for yourself - what an empowering thing to actually go GET the answers you were looking for (and hoping for) rather than just choosing a side and taking the word of others. "He said/she said" debates can be limiting and cumbersome, but I like your active approach - You've inspired me to do some sleuthing of my own, and I have a LOT of e-vets at my disposal in the metro Boston area!

 Quote: lori hall

None of those vets were 'pro-raw', they just answered the questions honestly. I also asked my regular vet clinic and my substitute vet clinic (one is putting up with me feeding raw, the other is neutral), and they answered the same - they have not had to extract a raw bone from a dog or cat. But yet they still warn their clients it can happen.

I find it really odd that when it comes to raw feeding (a lifestyle decision initiated by the owner, and hopefully well researched/considered), most vets are VERY quick to tell you about all the risks, yet many vet recommended treatments (vaccines, NSAIDS/Rimadyl, etc.) OFTEN go suggested - or even pushed - without ANY mention of their very serious risks (organ failure, immune system upset, neurological issues...). It is of course the DVM's job to prevent ills, diagnose problems, and prescribe what they believe to be helpful or necessary treatments to those problems, but I don't see nearly the same insistence on "scaring people" when the risky choice is made by the vet...

Risks are inherent in life. It's our job to weigh what we believe ALL the potential risks to be, and make our choice based on personal perception of where the greatest harm lies. For me personally, I see far more risk (chronic and insidious) to my dog associated with a lifetime of eating what Connie so aptly calls "cereal", than I do in the random chance that he might swallow a raw chicken bone awkwardly and puncture his gut. I'm sure it's a possibility, but the 2 years I've spent watching my dog handily chew up and poop out his raw food have left me feeling like the accidents that DO happen with regard to choking and punctured digestive tracts are just that, complete accidents - NOT forgone conclusions. Risks aside, the many, many BENEFITS of the raw diet just put icing on my decision. To each his own though.

~Natalya

 Quote: Michael_Wise

I just can't take seriously anyone that has created a vegan canine lobby.

You wouldn't be the only one!

Though we DO live in the same messed up world that just a decade or so ago decided it was A-OK to feed herbivorous bovines to other herbivorous bovines... What's happened to common sense??!!

~Natalya

Natalya, I'm gonna' start PMing you with what I want to say and then give you creative liberty to word it for me.

Nice, clear post. Great examples.:smile:

 Quote: natalya zahn

I find it really odd that when it comes to raw feeding (a lifestyle decision initiated by the owner, and hopefully well researched/considered), most vets are VERY quick to tell you about all the risks, yet many vet recommended treatments (vaccines, NSAIDS/Rimadyl, etc.) OFTEN go suggested - or even pushed - without ANY mention of their very serious risks (organ failure, immune system upset, neurological issues...). It is of course the DVM's job to prevent ills, diagnose problems, and prescribe what they believe to be helpful or necessary treatments to those problems, but I don't see nearly the same insistence on "scaring people" when the risky choice is made by the vet...

Risks are inherent in life. It's our job to weigh what we believe ALL the potential risks to be, and make our choice based on personal perception of where the greatest harm lies. For me personally, I see far more risk (chronic and insidious) to my dog associated with a lifetime of eating what Connie so aptly calls "cereal", than I do in the random chance that he might swallow a raw chicken bone awkwardly and puncture his gut. I'm sure it's a possibility, but the 2 years I've spent watching my dog handily chew up and poop out his raw food have left me feeling like the accidents that DO happen with regard to choking and punctured digestive tracts are just that, complete accidents - NOT forgone conclusions. Risks aside, the many, many BENEFITS of the raw diet just put icing on my decision. To each his own though.

~Natalya

 Quote: Michael_Wise

Natalya, I'm gonna' start PMing you with what I want to say and then give you creative liberty to word it for me.

Nice, clear post. Great examples.:smile:

Ditto!!!

Sam,

I gather from a quick glance at your posts you are considering (or maybe already started) raw feeding. Here's something I don't think has been brought up.

For almost 9 yrs., I've fed the 2 GSDs I've had during that time raw diets. Although I've never had the slightest problem, I know there are certain risks associated with raw feeding that could be avoided with other diets. All diets and feeding methods have some risk involved in different forms. While I used to preach the benefits of raw feeding, it's now a subject - along with religion and politics - that's in my "do not discuss" category.

Nine incident-free years is no guarantee I won't have a problem tomorrow. That's why, in part, I finally bought a grinder about a year ago and now grind about 90% of what I feed. When you cram a 5- or 6-lb. chicken through a grinder plate with 3/8" holes in it, you don't get many bones that can cause a problem splintering, impacting or sticking somewhere. (Hard to tell in a written post, but that's a sarcastic understatement. ) I'm not sure what my dog thinks about it, but I feel better about minimizing some of the risk. There may be some downside to her not 'grinding" her own food or getting it in the "pure" RMB form, but I'm happy to accept that risk.

JMO

Mike

Good advice on feeding ground meats if you are worried about the risks of whole bones.

I happen to feed mostly ground RMBs and purchase them from a local raw feeding supplier. I can get whole ground chicken, turkey, or beef with organ meat for $1.50-1.75/lb.

P.S. I feed ground because of my GSD's health problem which makes digestion a challenge...but also feel comfortable with whole RMBS.

Human children (and adults) sometimes choke on food.

Eating is not without risk. But the alternative is riskier.

I, personally, do best relying on common sense--and it tells me that all animals probably do best eating a diet that is as close to what God or evolution (pick your own side of that battle) intended them to eat. Nature did not create kibble.

Thank you all for the support and info!

I don't have the pup yet, I'm supposed to bring her home in about a week. So, right now I'm just in my "worry ahead" mode.

My wife and I already decided to feed our future puppy raw diet, for a number of reasons:
1) Having grown up in the Soviet Union, I've never even heard of kibble until I came here in the early 90s. So, it's actually the idea of feeding a dog grain-based pebbles that's weird to me, not the other way around. I guess, that made the decision easier for us than for most people who see kibble as "normal".
2) Raw makes sense to me, purely from what I know about the canidae. Kibble doesn't. I was taught at school that dogs, cats and their wild relatives are carnivores. Just because they'll eat an occasional plant, doesn't change the big picture. Then there are teeth. The way their stomachs are different from ours, let alone from those of grazers. Etc.
3) If humans evolved dogs to be so different from wild predators over these years as to completely change their dietary needs, then why do dogs still have prey drive?
4) If I was forced to eat a pound of pebble-size dry bread cubes in one sitting, I'd choke on the second swallow, and I truly am an omnivore (within limits). I can't believe it's natural for a natural predator, either.
And so on.

I'm certain we're not going to be feeding our dog kibble. It's going to be raw. I completely agree with Connie and others that there are dangers inherent in anything. I think I'm just trying to do the best for my future dog (since it's a huge responsibility) and as a result end up researching things to death (seems to be my Modus operandi). So, in the process of learning, I try to read both arguments. It's separating emotions from facts that's always difficult. And if I see something that looks like a legitimate concern (like the splintered bones issue), I try to find out how much of a concern it is. It seems like anecdotal evidence would indicate that it's not an overwhelming one.

Since this will be our very first dog ever, I hope you can understand my nervousness over the whole thing. I'll get less paranoid the more I learn and the more real life experience I get, I promise!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

What does significant mean to you? I don't know how to say how significant it is.

What would make my day would be the statistics of the type the CDC has for humans. Such as, among dog deaths, X number died from impacted raw bones, Y number -- from impacted cooked bones, Z -- from choking on kibble, etc. Separating them by the diet they are fed would be even better.
That way, we could compare relative risks based on real data, and I could determine for myself that if the number of dogs dying from a stomach wound caused by a bone is close to that of dogs drowning in swimming pools, for instance, then it's sad, but not a cause for panic. If, on the other hand, every third RMB-fed dog died from raw bone punctures, that would be a completely different situation. Does this make sense?

Of course, nobody probably has compiled, let alone analyzed data like these, so anecdotal evidence is all we can go on, and that sounds like while a valid concern, it's not too big of a deal, if common sense and advice of knowledgeable people like you guys are heeded. Which I'm certainly planning to do.

Mike and Melissa. Or anyone else that grinds their food. This post is not directed towards you in any way.

As Mike said, raw feeding is now a "subject", and some folks get their feewings hurt and can misunderstand a differing opinion as a personal attack. This is not a personal attack. Everyone here, especially you guys, are level headed individuals, and I know my comments would not be misunderstood by you, but there is my disclaimer anyway.:smile:

Just wanted to have the other side of the "grinding bones" view in the mix.

I'm of the opinion that whole food is right up there with food quality.

Grinding, IMO:wink:, completely negates all the tooth cleaning effects of gnawing and tearing in to raw meat and bones. Essentially giving it the same poor tooth cleaning quality of kibble or canned food.

This argument probably isn't as convincing as eliminating the risk of damage from bone shards, because what the hell does periodontal disease look like in the beginning stages anyway? Plaque isn't scary looking at all.

Late stages of the disease can be pretty nasty looking, but appearance isn't my concern. It is what is going on inside the dog that would concern me. Its the effects that periodontal disease has on internal organs. The same collagen wasting bacteria that attacks the mouth can wreak the same havoc inside the body, too.

It can be said that it is the enzymes that a raw fed dog has that keep the teeth clean. While I don't doubt that there is some truth to that, it cannot be denied that a diet of soft food promotes the development of the disease. I think even the A.V.A. acknowledges that.

There is even documentation from zoo researchers that soft food helps the disease take hold and progress..........but I'm sure they also have documentation of choking and bone shard incidents and deaths.

Also, periodontal disease is still a risk to raw fed dogs. My dog has terrible teeth. Diet can't change genetics or physical deformity that can also damage health.

There are a lot of people that feed ground food and have dogs with immaculate teeth. Same with kibble or canned food. Doesn't mean that there aren't unseen effects, but it doesn't mean there are either.

Still, I think there are so many "maybe's" in life that you just have to pick what feels best to you.

Leaving food whole may increase the risk of some problems, but the possible risks that arise from grinding are not something that I, personally:wink:, am willing to accept.

E.T.A. If there is a medical problem that makes grinding a must, then I agree 100% with grinding.