Re: Seriuos Issues With Jeter
[Re: Angela Burrell ]
#243519 - 06/15/2009 09:58 AM |
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It *sounds* like a fear-based aggression to me. It *sounds* like he was reacting defensively when the child came near (i.e. he thought he had to defend himself from some perceived threat.) The drooling and anxiety when he was put inside would corroborate this. I could be wrong on this.
That's what I thought too, especially considering the melee of the garage sale, and knowing that he was tied to the garage on a short line. It sounds like Jeter may have been quite overwhelmed by the whole experience.
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Re: Seriuos Issues With Jeter
[Re: Angela Burrell ]
#243520 - 06/15/2009 10:00 AM |
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Angela,he has always been good with people. Kids, adults, whatever. On walks or especially bike rides he is so focused on walking or running that he is only distracted by other dogs or squirrels. Kids can be walking or skateboarding...no problem. This dog loves to walk or run.
As far as the drooling and whining and just being "nuts" in the crate on Saturday. I really think he was reacting to not being with me. Of course I cant be sure but he loves his crate and will regularly go in there on his own to lay down. My wife says he can sense that it is the weekend and I am around the house doing things, in and out of the yard and in and out of the front and back doors and normally he would get up in his crate and look like he wants to come out and hang out with me as I move around the property but this weekend he just went ballistic. I never saw him like this.
I should describe his posture when he see's another dog on walks. Even from a long distance away. he gets stiff and he usually backs up a few steps and then starts to whine. he gets fixated and then he pulls towards the target. I try to get him to focus on me and I stand in front of him. I use the Cesar "touch" method to break the fixation and he will for a moment and then right back to the target.
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Re: Seriuos Issues With Jeter
[Re: Alec S. Garrison ]
#243521 - 06/15/2009 10:06 AM |
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Connie, I cant swear to it but I have to (for now) disagree that Jeter see's me as his underling. I have very good control over him and I can get him to submit to me with just my eyes and hand signals. There are moments when he seems to want to challenge me but its very rare and as soon as I use my voice he gets in line.
I have a very deep voice and I know how to address him with posture and all that.
Alec:
I have to agree with Connie, it's very doubtful that the dog was in protection mode. And was more than likely resource guarding what he felt was his. As you stated, he challenges you, which means he's not quite seeing you as total pack leader yet. It doesn't mean he see's you that way in every situation. He could see you as pack leader in certain situations where you have proven yourself to be above him.
Have you ever done what Jo (I think it was Jo) did in her post? Not allow him to posture or re-act aggressively around or towards strangers? Are YOU the one to step in front and show him that he shouldn't be acting that way, letting him know that it's YOUR job to confront those issues, not his
As for the anxiousness, you didn't say what you did after Jeter lunged. Did you correct him, what was your re-action to what he did? Sorry, but that first post was a doozy and i might have missed what happened.
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Re: Serious Issues With Jeter
[Re: Alec S. Garrison ]
#243524 - 06/15/2009 10:31 AM |
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Alec, when I stand in front of my dog, I stop him with a command, step in front of him and FACE the oncoming distraction while standing firm and tall. I tell my boy to leave it (at first training.)Leave it means touch it and I will discipline you. He understands that.
Once he was used to me taking charge, then I focused on training the LOOK while walking far away from distractions. If I am ever at doubt about his ability to NOT go after a dog, then I do stand firm and tall in front of him (my back to him or at least sideways), tell him to leave it in a soft voice (Loud and coarse vocalization will set him on a spree), and keep control until I decide time to move on. Why with my back to him? Because I lead and I want him to see me lead.
Practice at home on the focus. Practice standing in front of your dog without him wanting to come beside you or in front of you. See what he does. Betcha he tries to come up with you. Then, you KNOW you need practice, practice, practice.
Oh, and I would never let this dog loose in a dog park, even if you proof him to come when called, leave it on command, and look at you when commanded. Well, you can do what you want in the future, your dog, your choice, but I would advise to never use dog parks to play (proof on lead, yes) and never loose around children. Children can reach a dog who isn't paying attention, and you aren't paying attention, and then they get bitten.
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Re: Serious Issues With Jeter
[Re: Jo Harker ]
#243526 - 06/15/2009 10:42 AM |
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Oh...and breathe, Alec. Anxiety from you will make Jeter anxious. You tighten up, he alerts. I know from personal experience. You have to practice relaxing so your dog realizes there isn't anything to get tense about.
It takes practice and practice and practice. As I said, I have hundreds of hours invested in Hambone and the proof of all these hours is I have Lucy in my family now(see my sig pic) and I can take him in public in close quarters (read 4 ft away) with other dogs and he looks to me...yes, he whines and whimpers a little sometimes, so that tells me he is anxious and then I move him away to quiet. It can be done.
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Re: Seriuos Issues With Jeter
[Re: Kristel Smart ]
#243527 - 06/15/2009 11:13 AM |
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It *sounds* like a fear-based aggression to me. It *sounds* like he was reacting defensively when the child came near (i.e. he thought he had to defend himself from some perceived threat.) The drooling and anxiety when he was put inside would corroborate this. I could be wrong on this.
That's what I thought too, especially considering the melee of the garage sale, and knowing that he was tied to the garage on a short line. It sounds like Jeter may have been quite overwhelmed by the whole experience.
And I would third this observation - GREAT comments coming your way Alec.
There were a lot of factors that day, but it's not uncommon for many dogs to behave quite differently when they know they're tied up - not only are they "leashed" without hopes of escaping a perceived threat, but they don't even have their human at the end of that leash sending vibes one way or another. A dog with even the slightest insecurity, without the physical connection to it's pack leader, runs the risk of preemptively lashing out in this situation. It doesn't mean Jeter hates kids now (though I would be VERY cautious from here on out with how you manage him around young uns), it may have just been a reaction to a very uncomfortable situation for him.
Alec, I believe you do have good control over Jeter - when you're paying 100% attention to him, and he can sense that you're 100% there for him - but he sounds like the type that quickly backslides out of "calm submission" without the presence of a grounding figure (you). You can probably work to improve his confidence to some degree, but as other posters have alluded to, chances are you're just realizing that this dog will require more careful management than you had previously thought, or hoped. Don't be dissuaded by this - I have a dog that I would never leave tied up, even near to me, in a crowded situation - ESPECIALLY if there were kids or other dogs present. I don't take my dog to dog parks to play with random other dogs either - and it's rare that I will even stay on the same side of the street if I see another dog walker heading our way. I didn't ask for Oscar's temperament, but once I had him, there was really no other option than to work WITH it, rather than keep pushing him to be a completely different dog. Consider having a challenging dog just a great opportunity for an exceptional education in canine behavior and training.
As long as you can build a healthy relationship with your dog based on trust, safety and obedience, and as long as you're willing to take a few extra precautions when it comes to avoiding potentially dangerous scenarios (this will take forethought, sacrifice and compromise), there's really no reason to want your dog to be anything except what he is.
~Natalya
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Re: Serious Issues With Jeter
[Re: Natalya Zahn ]
#243531 - 06/15/2009 12:07 PM |
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Great advice from everyone. Just want to point out that pack leadership is going to benefit the dog who is fearful just as much as the one who is vying for "top dog" position.
His perception that you are in charge, that you make all decisions, that you protect and direct -- all of this is confidence-building to an anxious dog just as much as it is a "Here's the way it works here" thing for a dog jockeying for leadership.
And yes: management management management.
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Re: Serious Issues With Jeter
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#243548 - 06/15/2009 02:54 PM |
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You guys are all awesome. I will not give up under any circumstances on this dog. I was just very alarmed when I saw him go to attack a very young child. I feel bad for him. I want him to be happy and if he is this stressed out how can he be? Jeter and Dakota are so different and it presents an additional challenge.
They have different needs and require individual attention. There is a lot of traffic in my house with the kids and their friends coming in and out, etc. Thank goodness for you guys. I was freaked out that I have a dangerous dog and its a matter of time before I or someone in my family makes a small mistake, he gets out and the results are disastrous. I really believe he would have killed or very seriously hurt that kid. I am going to go home tonight and go over all of these posts with my wife and come up with a game plan so we can ge this right.
As an aside...what ever happened to the days when dogs were easy? I had dogs my whole life and none were professionally trained and none had these kind of issues. All my dogs were shelter dogs. Any thoughts?
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Re: Serious Issues With Jeter
[Re: Alec S. Garrison ]
#243554 - 06/15/2009 03:44 PM |
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"As an aside...what ever happened to the days when dogs were easy?"
Whether for good or bad, we necessarily have a different way of living with dogs now. Dogs are now mostly confined and restrained (as they must be) and we as owners have to make up for that with loads of structured exercise and plenty of brain-work.
We also put more on our dogs in our increasingly mobile and fragmented society, where extended families are no longer the norm and where so many people live alone. Dogs are often viewed as family members now, and that makes it a quick jump to humanizing them.
JMO.
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Re: Serious Issues With Jeter
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#243559 - 06/15/2009 04:25 PM |
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Interesting. Thanks for all the feedback. Jeter thanks you too.
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