What terrific posts!

In my case I tried corrections, I tried ignoring it and I tried holding his paw for longer than he liked when he put it on me, but I was still getting a paw to the face every time I laid down on the couch.

The need to put a paw on me seemed to override all of those.

Using the clicker was the only one that made a difference.

It is very much "Look at me!! Look at me!! hey! hey! hey!" behavior with him so using the clicker made it clear that I would in fact pay attention to him when he was doing the right thing.

It also reminds me of my son, he kept getting in trouble for talking and being a clown in class.

We tried grounding, we tried taking things away, we tried talking...none of those things worked, but cold hard cash did. A dollar a day for being good in school and getting his work done has done the trick.

Sure I wish he just would just be good, but by rewarding desired behavior we are setting up new habits that will last as opposed to focusing on the negative.

I understand the concept of the door situation. You want to replace unwanted behavior with a more acceptable behavior (human goes to the door, dog once got excited and pushed his way to/thru door - now dog learns human goes to do I sit down to see whats coming next).

There is action there - human gets up and goes to the door, or someone knocks on the door - the action at the door.

But if you are sitting on the couch and out of the blue dog comes up and paws you.

I used the idea of the electric fence - but about anti-bark collars? Dog barks, gets sprayed or gets an electronic correction.There is no replacement behavior. But of course there is no human linked. So that is a major difference.

In dog training - is there 'the idea' that you teach the dog what is NOT acceptable? What the limits and boundaries are? (boundaries - even under ground fence systems for example, I don't own one but I am guessing dog gets close to underground wire, collar gives a warning, then a poke).

My friend has asked with the clicker training for pawing "if you teach a replacement behavior for pawing, 'stand' or 'sit' or what ever, how long does the dog do that behavior before it is released?"


And - with this type of attention seeking behavior, (I may be repeating myself, can't view my other post from this screen shot) one would want to be sure the dogs (or even the kids) basic needs are being met for pent up 'energy' (attention, exercise etc) - that the dog has 'outlet time' of some acceptable measure. I'm sure the levels vary from individual dog to individual dog.

The dog trainer/behaviorist I had come out to my place had it like this:

Sitting on the chair, dog comes up and puts a paw on you, esp with head getting higher, calmly and with out any emotion put hand on dogs paw or head (which ever was highest) and just let it stay there. Dog puts other paw on you, put your other hand on top. No talking, just totally aloof.

What I had been doing was probably what most 'non dog' experience people would do. The dog would put a paw on me, and I'd remove my arm.

I think the trainer didn't want me to move my arm, I guess the dog pushing me out of my space type of thing, so be just as passively annoying by putting my hand on the dogs head/paw.

And I got the concept - but the dog didn't. Next thing you knew she'd craw up into your lap (at almost 70 pounds). :-\

And he did the ignore thing to, if she pawed while we were standing, he'd turn around and go the other way.

Don't give the behavior 'value'.

Like I said - I'm going to be watching the Obedience DVD this next week. Just wanted the conversation.

In dog training - is there 'the idea' that you teach the dog what is NOT acceptable?

Of course. Again, you might prefer to choose your battles, as mentioned earlier.

My friend has asked with the clicker training for pawing "if you teach a replacement behavior for pawing, 'stand' or 'sit' or what ever, how long does the dog do that behavior before it is released?"

This is a whole 'nother subject without a blanket reply. The behavior that I might be marker-training is over when I mark (which is a release, saying not just "correct! reward coming" but also "command accomplished"), but that does not mean that I won't later introduce duration and/or strings of behaviors, etc. "How long" is not a one-size-fits-all answer.

Like I said - I'm going to be watching the Obedience DVD this next week.

That DVD has some marker instruction in it. I don't know if I read what DVDs you have/will have, but I also recommend very highly that the first marker video be watched asap. http://leerburg.com/219.htm will illuminate just about every other video, including Basic Ob, even though Basic Ob was made much earlier.

Watching the free clips on LB (and there are many!) of marker work is going to give you a taste of how unlimited this kind of training is. The idea of the problem-solving dog who is eager and excited to learn -- it changes the way we think about and approach training.


eta:

http://leerburg.com/videolistcat.php?cat=Michael+Ellis



Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/05/2010 10:49 PM)
Edit reason: eta

I know for my dog, putting my hand on top of his paw or his head would be doing exactly what he wanted, he doesn't care where I touch him as long as there is contact.

I do get what you are saying about certain situations like an electric fence, or a child with a stove there is no replacement behavior, only a NO! (or a shock)

But rewarding or reinforcing 4 paws on the floor does go with the whole NILIF concept, you aren't giving them anything until they are doing what you want. It also makes sure that the dog knows what you want him to do so that any corrections are fair.

I also want to add that when I worked on solving this problem I didn't engage him at all beyond a click and tossing a treat to him. I just sat there with a fist full of treats and watched him out of the corner of my eye and pretended to watch TV. Clicking and treating one second after his paw hit the floor.

If I want to pet him or cuddle I will call him to me.

It did cause a temporary increase in pawing while he was trying to figure out what on earth was going on, but it sunk in the first night and only took a few nights to solve the problem.

Now that I know he knows what I want I will correct a paw on me with a stern EHH! and he will stop and not put it back on me.

 Quote: jennifer lee

I also want to add that when I worked on solving this problem I didn't engage him at all beyond a click and tossing a treat to him.

Don't you ad a verbal command? In my mind if you were just sitting there with a handful of treats and a clicker - and you click and treat any time the dog does ANYTHING you want, how does it learn what you want if you don't associate it with a command?

And why couldn't you just give a 'SIT' or a 'STAND' command? vs introducing yet another word into the vocabulary "4 paws"?

Natalie

 Quote:

It's so easy to resort to little corrections for minor offenses, but in addition to often not being wholly effective, they really do change the relationship you have with your dog. And as it pertains to children* - I don't currently have any, but I sure appreciate those parents who are constantly engaging with and thinking about how to change their child's poor behaviors into desirable ones, rather than those who sound like broken records stuck on "NO!" - the later of which always seem to be surrounded by exceptionally unruly and thoughtless rug rats.

Well I have raised two boys and I will say if I gave my kids a cookie for every time I wanted them to behave VS misbehave... LOL. And at some point what they want to do is going to over ride the 'cookies' I offer, or I'll end up with fat kids. :-P There has got to be a balance between providing for the child what they need (social interaction, exercise, good diet, good rest, outlets etc) and not letting them manipulate. But this forum isn't about child training. LOL.

But from watching the Obedience videos - I saw that he DID use corrections after the dog 'learned'.

And I am sure I am going to sound like someone who just wants to DISCIPLINE my dog with punishments. And though it may read like it, I don't nit pick (constantly saying NO).

My biggest issue with this dog is the pawing/jumping on thing. So I guess I have picked my battle. I mean she isn't super trained but I don't have many complains about OUR learning curve at this point.

... you click and treat any time the dog does ANYTHING you want, how does it learn what you want if you don't associate it with a command?

You do, when the action is the way you want it. I name it when the dog is doing what I want to name and ask for by that name.

And why couldn't you just give a 'SIT' or a 'STAND' command?

You can! Does the dog know one of those commands? Then yes, you can definitely do what others are suggesting: ask for a different behavior from what he is doing. And you can say no, too!

But from watching the Obedience videos - I saw that he DID use corrections after the dog 'learned'.

Absolutely, after the dog has learned.

 Quote: Kaye L. Barnes

 Quote: Jennifer Lee

I also want to add that when I worked on solving this problem I didn't engage him at all beyond a click and tossing a treat to him.

Don't you ad a verbal command? In my mind if you were just sitting there with a handful of treats and a clicker - and you click and treat any time the dog does ANYTHING you want, how does it learn what you want if you don't associate it with a command?

I did add a verbal command, but not until he had gotten the idea that I wanted him to keep his paws on the ground. The way I learned to do it was to shape the behavior first then start combining the verbal command with it.

I train using as few words and as many hand signals as possible though, because I tend to talk a lot and the hand signals are much more clear to my dogs.

As I said before, I do correct now, using a stern EEHHH! But before I taught him what I actually wanted the correction didn't work.

This is also my only real complaint with this dog, it is the one thing he does that drives me crazy.

But once again I tried ignoring, I tried correcting, I tried holding his paw everytime he put it on me and NONE of that worked until I used the clicker to teach him what I did want instead.

In the same mode of thinking, my husky barks at my son for attention, it is mostly my son's fault for ignoring him until he gets really annoying then giving in and playing with him or loving on him. But in this situation even when Tyler gets mad and will yell NO! at Yote it is reinforcing the behavior.
I have talked and talked to my son about how he is making it worse, and he needs to tough it out and not acknowledge Yote when he barks, but he is a kid so it doesn't always work.

I have tried giving Yote a correction for barking, but he will just go back to doing it a few minutes later, the want for attention over rides the worry about another correction.

I am now waiting for a few seconds of silence then having my son put him in a down. And using affection from my son as a reward.

He still will get up and bark, but I am confident that after a week or so of this he will get the idea that laying quietly at my son's feet is the way to get attention.

Year and half old!!!!????
It's about time he learns NO means NO.
What ever it is, just stop it. Just say no.

Now then, you can go back to whatever. Problem solved.

"No" has been mentioned a few times, along with teaching alternative behaviors, etc.


I'm interested in the O.P.'s NILIF, pack work, etc., too. The pawing was/is part of a big picture including sitting on the owner's feet, giving body slams to the humans' legs, climbing on people, etc.



ETA
The pawing was the thing asked about, I guess, looking back.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/16/2010 07:29 PM)
Edit reason: eta