Hi John
Welcome to the forum!
Everyone's advice about NILF and more obedience training is spot on.
I would also add that you can eventually make the leash tugging into a reward. It is something many people in agility and flyball do, and can help to control your dog around the leash.
For me, when he starting tugging, I would stop all activity, turn slightly, try not to pull back, and ignore him. The instant he stops, and I mean the very instant, reward and praise (food or toy, doesn't matter). It may take a bit of time for him to remove himself from the leash and a lot of repitition, but I have found this method works well on dogs who do not want to give up a toy, even in a trade for food or another toy. It's no fun when the person on the other end isn't paying attention or joining in the game. It's not going to be an instant success, but the dog learns that you are not going to play the game, no matter what, and he's rewarded when the leash isn't in his mouth.
Eventually pair it with a solid "out" command, and then you can start using the leash as a reward, but ONLY when you've gained control over his habit. You may want to invest in one of those "tug" leashes that you see agility competitors using(believe they can be found on the cleanrun agility website - not sure if leerburg sells them, but check out the store as well).
I've used a similar method on my little JRT around the vacuum. She hates the darn thing, and wants to kill it, but has learned that with silence and control, she is rewarded by being allowed to attack it. It is the only thing that worked in this instant, and has also helped in reducing her fixation on it, as she has now learned to control herself.
Same idea with the leash. Once control is had and maintained, the leash can become a reward. Ie. sit him every now-and-then on a walk, and reward a good sit with a leash tug. Good behaviour equals leash tugging, control of a bad habit, dogs learns to control himself to gain the reward. But again, this can only be used as a reward once you have a good, solid "out".
This may or may not help, all dogs are different, and respond in kind to different types of training. But, it might be worth a try.
Good luck!!

It's all just training. The dog either doesn't know the command you're giving him or is choosing not to listen.

Andrew,

thanks for the advice/replies etc.

i will look into michael ellis dvds no doubt!

i will say that chewy does seem to initiate much of our encounters so i will keep a watchful eye on the petting / ball playing in the house etc. he does know that when we reach any door he must sit before we are able to go through and typically my wife and/or i (sometimes only one of us but mostly both of us) will go through and we wait a few seconds before he is "ok'd" to come through. we can tell him "go kennel" at any time and he will go there and waits until we "okay" him before coming out. (we typically say go kennel and then no dogs)...sometimes we play word games and say things that sound like or rhyme with "okay" and he only leaves on "okay"...

as far as the exercise...the morning is typically either a 2-3 mile walk or a 2-3 run then evening is either 3-4 mile trail run (as he is still young and it gets dark too quick to run much more right now) or we play ball/frisbee on the 100' line for an hour or so (he typically does several full sprints for the ball etc but starts to get the ball and lay down) at this point he sometimes runs for the ball sometimes not....

i would love to take him on mtn bike rides but i can not trust him off leash right now... he has 0 recall, loves to visit other people and dogs etc (when on leash and jogging though he runs right by people without a care in the world) also there are way too many people right now with dogs off leash that can't control their dogs and these dogs sometimes come running up to us 2 at a time when we job and then follow us and i have to stop and wait for the owner to come get their dogs.... i really want to have a reliable recall before letting him off leash to jog/mtn bike with me....i think i could try the "skijor" thing sometime only with roller blades as we have no snow where i am at

i will say that with the frisbee and ball playing on line, he is horrible at dropping it when he returns....in the house he drops on command with a ball but when we go outside its like he is so excited all he wants to do is thrash the ball or frisbee side to side (like all dogs do) and wont let go or drop until he's ready for another throw or we grab the prong collar (typically don't actually have to correct but just grab and he drops, backs up and barks for more)

we will keep working harder with the heel etc.... if i take a piece of his fav treat and start practicing "heel" and walking etc in the house or outside, he is 100% focused, never goes in front of us and does all his turns awesome....but without food he pays attention to all other things around him I HAVE TO BELIEVE THIS IS A SIGN THAT HE BELIEVES HES ALPHA?????

he used to be much more behave around distractions but lately he has started to lose that desire to pay attention to us ??? could be his age being 13months and his new found confidence??? we do try and consistently work with him on commands obedience but i guess now we need to do it even more....

also it was mentioned in here to try and ignore him when he goes after the leash and wait til he lets go before praising him...problem is that he just rebites more and more and closer and closer to your hand until there is tension....it is really a scary thing and many never believe us when we tell them just how violent a leash biting this is.... when we did the 3 week course where we dropped him off, they also thought "oh he is just playing tug and this will be easy" and figured we were just making it sound worse than it was....that was until the first and second times out chewy bit right through two of their leather leashes when he did this...what we ended up doing is going with a long chain between leash and collar so the bite would be uncomfortable and he would let go: hell he seems to even have gotten used to biting the chain as he won't let go of that much any more....

thanks again to all and we will begin working on much of what you mention immediately... its just hard to do the walking / running when we know what the potential is and have a hard time taking care of it....

John,
You have to try and give a command or redirect BEFORE he grabs onto the leash.
Watch him closely, if you see him even thinking about grabbing it that is when you give the command/redirect. Yes you will have to very quick and timing is critical, but im sure you can see body language and tell when he's getting the idea.
He is redirecting onto the leash to get out his frustration (IMO), and once he is biting that leash it's already too late to give a command(as you said he doesn't listen when he's biting the leash)becasue he's in the "red" zone and past the point of no return.
The trick is to redirect before he even thinks about the leash.

Also, have you tried two ball to work on him dropping the bal?
I haven't read every single post on here so if someone else has mentioned it i apologize.
Two ball is when you have 2 balls, throw one for dog, when he brings ball back show him new ball, he will more than likely drop the ball in his mouth to go fetch the new one. I didn't see it said, but are you having a hard time getting him to bring the ball TO you, or just dropping the ball to play again?

How much OB work are you ding with him daily?
Mental work will wear him out much quicker than physical work.

Have you tried maybe tuckering him out a bit before you take him on walks? I was having problems with my dog when I first got him (heeling etc) becasue he was always so excited to go out for his walks that he was like a canine jumping bean. Someone suggested I play fetch with im for a bit before I take him out so he could get the jumpies out, then walk him. Worked perfectly.

Nilf is a great great idea.



Edited by Wendy Lefebvre (01/22/2010 11:12 AM)
Edit reason: omitted a suggestion i see he already tried

It sounds like your dog wants to run in front of you. I say, let him. He's 13 months old- and please go by whatever you feel is healthy for your dog- but at that age my Alaskan husky was running from 10-15 miles/day, mainly off-leash, and had competed in two 4-mile skijor races. Have you heard of 'canicross'? It's the same as skijor, only you're running, as so is he. This is a great way to wear out your dog, while allowing him to 'work' for you. There are many associated commands to make it mentally stimulating. The hardest for my dog is 'on-by'- keep the line taut and run by obstacles, dogs, etc. 'Gee'-turn right and 'haw'-turn left were fun to teach and easy to learn. And there are many more. You might also consider bikejor (same concept, only with a bike) or scooter. I like skijor because both you and the dog are working hard, and it's really fast and fun, but you can make do if you have no snow. I wouldn't recommend rollerblades with a fast, untrained dog. Very dangerous.
A pulling harness costs about $15 and you can buy one here: http://www.nooksackracing.com/, or at any other mushing supply site, and I'd also strongly recommend a bungee line to reduce jolts for you and the dog. When I'm running, skiing, hiking, biking and my dogs are off leash, they are almost always ahead of me. They are within sight, but not in a heeling position. Because I don't have a 100% spot-on recall for the husky (shepherd is almost there- working on husky with rewards based right now, e-collar once that's solid), I only let them off-leash in areas that I know are fairly safe. But they are able to burn off about 200 % more energy off leash than on- unless they're pulling in harness. So if you have 'safe' areas you can free run him it also might be something to consider.
Other cattle dog owners have given great advice, and I think this dog would really enjoy the oppurtunity to pull, and pull fast. Think about a scooter.
And as a side note- great 'lead dogs' on sled teams are not always the 'alpha' dog, and seldom dominant to humans. A dog that considers himself to be working while running in front is loving his job, and a lot less likely to think about biting the leash. Even 20 minutes of hard lead running every other day should tire your dog out. It is actually quite mentally demanding for a dog to lead like this, so it'll help exercise his mind and body.

the above might be a good idea for the OP once he gets things in order for his pooch Obedience wise. But I think it would be counter-productive for him right now to get his dog involved in a sport that involved pulling and being out in front. He's having an issue with dog being pushy and possibly not seeing the owner as a leader.

And, I have to say it, and it is just my opinion (actually I hope it's NOT just my opinion, im hoping alot of people on here agree with my opinion) but....

If you don't have a 100% recall on your dog you shouldn't be letting them off leash anywhere except in an enclosed area or a fenced backyard. For their own safety and for the consideration to other people out in the same area walking their own dogs.
Even if it's a rare occurence for you to come across other people, what would you do if your dog took off after some sort of wildlife, or came across something you didn't want them to get into?

My dogs recall is 99%...and as tempted as I am to let him off leash in the park or on hiking trails I don't. Why? Because it's always in the back of my mind that there could be that one instant the he doesn't recall and thats' the end of him, that him chasing that bird out into the street is not going to end with him running back to me, but is going to end with him lying in the road after a car hits him, or it's going to be the one time his DA gets the best of him and he's going to do more than just chase the other dog, he's going to do some damage and im going to have a more trouble than i care to deal with.
So for my peace of mind, and his, he is always on a long line. They learn to adapt to it trailing behind him, heck he now knows that if he gets it stuck, if he walks back the way he came, he can sometimes get it unstuck himself instead of waiting for me.

yeah chewy always has to be out front right now on our runs...

when pull up in the car and he knows we are near the park (he seems to recognize the areas that we run at ) he is already crying to get out of the car...then i put him down while i try and get my camel back on and he is crying loudly and barking and crying and barking and then jumping to run as i try and walk to the trail...he starts getting so amped up and frustrated if i just don't let him go running straight away...

then for the first 100yds or so he is pulling quite a bit before he eventually settles into a nice jog etc...but still then he is always out front and very difficult to get to run by my side...


he absolutely loves these runs and if i stop for a water break at 2 or 3 miles, he doesn't want water and is crying and barking again to continue.... he just loves the run... i fear letting him pull like that won't get him to settle when we get to the park and job on my terms... not his....

i don't think he is ready for off leash at all as he still has no recall and in a park when we play ball on the 100' line, he still likes to take off at times to see other people or dogs or soccer balls etc. so its been nice to have the line ...

(on a side note, why is it that in a large park that has plenty of space, people still seem to move to the exact area where you are playing ball with your puppy and do sprints or job by or bring their off leash dogs around????????????????????? seriously there is sooooo much space elsewhere in the park where you can do your thing why try and create some potential problem???????)

i really appreciate everyones advice on here...i do have a lot to learn and am more than willing to do so.... i love this little guy more than any dog i have ever owned and want to do right by him....

Hey John,

did you see the other post about possibly tiring your dog out a bit BEFORE you take him on a walk?

it might help with his excitement & zoomies he seems to exhibit when he knows he's going for a walk.

Also, im not saying he can't EVER be in front on a walk.
But if it's a loose leash heel you're looking for he should only be allowed up front when YOU say.
Tucker is in a heel until we get to the trails, then I switch him to his long line and tell him "go ahead" only then is he allowed to forge ahead of me.

Wendy, I think once some "Gee-Haw" work done that skijor is not a recipe for encouraging dominance or a reward for being out in front.

It is pretty easy to train gee-haw to start, especially for a herding dog. You can do this even without a reliable recall as dog is on a line in harness.

My own experience is my dogs get the difference between skijor where pulling is encouraged and heeling or walking back. I have seen no adverse effects. in fact my beauceron who is a skijor dog blew the BH when she lagged in the heel.

Skijor, especially with skier behind and likely skooter too, puts the dog entirely in the control of the handler, and vulnerable to the skis or skoot behind, does not put a dog in adominant frame of mind, more in a business like mode of pulling if the dog gets it...this cattle dog of John's will...also, it is mentally exhausting for the dogs to skijor.

I found using greg derritt's drills for Left and Right in agility helped a lot with my gee-haww trained beauceron. He uses a tug reward to spin the dog in clockwise and counterclockwise circles, with reward, gets the dog used to direction changes: a method that would never work for sled dogs but works for herd dogs.

an example: last night I skijorred with a working lines gsd (house guest for the week) and my beauceron: we did the initial 2.5 km in around 7 min at a flat out gallop, very exhilarating, left me feeling rather Olympic, even without EPO. The next 4.5km (secluded trail) I let both off leash, and then for the last 2.5 km put them back in harness, for a steadier trot. At the end, they were mentally and physically exhausted, and happy too. They had responded to a number of commands, been mindful of me, my skis, and each other, did an on-by, had a skidoo with headlight follow us for a half kilo, etc.

on leash free with a dog with less than perfect recall: depends on the dogs and where you live. population density, dog's interst in game, dog's aggression, etc.

Hi John, have you tried the Flyball team locator?
http://www.flyball.org/getstarted/california.html

And this is an alternate one but I'm not sure how up to date it is:
http://flyballdogs.com/locator.html#california

~Anne