Marc,
Do the dogs settle nicely in the house during the day?
Sorry for the 20 questions, but I'm not sure what I would do in this situation. Anyone?? Multi-dog owners? CONNIE!!!

Let's leave the crate issue for the moment, and talk about other things you can do re pack structure.

Furniture...don't let them on it, especially if you are having growling issues.

Feeding...ask for a behavior (like sit) before putting the bowl down.

Going through doors...ask for a sit and calm behavior before going outside, and have the dog follow you through the door.

If the dog likes to get in your way, you can walk through the dog, making him move, instead of around him.

Call the dog to you for affection; if he's pushy about being petted, ignore that behavior and give affection on your terms.

Incorporate marker training into your dogs' lives. They will love it and so will you!

OK, I'm still mulling over the crate thing; separating the crates in a good idea, as is locating them in an area where the dogs can't see you (and ideally where you can't hear them...much)

The most important thing is to wait until a moment of silence before letting the dog out. If you give in to the whining, even once, you are sending a strong signal that whining is the way out.

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

Do the dogs settle nicely in the house during the day? ...

Let's leave the crate issue for the moment, and talk about other things you can do re pack structure.

Furniture...don't let them on it, especially if you are having growling issues.

Feeding...ask for a behavior (like sit) before putting the bowl down.

Going through doors...ask for a sit and calm behavior before going outside, and have the dog follow you through the door.

If the dog likes to get in your way, you can walk through the dog, making him move, instead of around him.

Call the dog to you for affection; if he's pushy about being petted, ignore that behavior and give affection on your terms.

Incorporate marker training into your dogs' lives. They will love it and so will you!

OK, I'm still mulling over the crate thing; separating the crates in a good idea, as is locating them in an area where the dogs can't see you (and ideally where you can't hear them...much)

The most important thing is to wait until a moment of silence before letting the dog out. If you give in to the whining, even once, you are sending a strong signal that whining is the way out.

Ditto, of course, to the above.

The two threads with many of the same issues are driving me crazy. I can't be the only one going back and forth and giving up.

Marc, can you clarify what the issues were (aside from the dog reactivity/aggression on walks) that triggered the groundwork (the crate work, etc.)? Just in this thread?

Tell us what the issues were for each dog.

Maybe we should close the other one and direct to this one.

OK, let's read here:
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267412#Post267412
and then address the points here, if that's OK. The two simultaneous threads were not helpful.

Here is Marc's last point from the dog-reactivity on walks thread, which is relevant far more to this one:

.... But I must say I'm still a little confused about the groundwork and if I should still have him crated 24/7? Like I said earlier the whining continues. He is panting and driving himself nuts. Should I continue w/ this? Should I add an some obed. training in too? I know in the dvd it said to wait until the pack structure program is finished before starting any kind of obed training. I just don't want this to hurt him more than help him. And especially because my female seems to be more calm submissive in the crate, she is going to move on to stage two (being out of the crate but on a leash tied to me or the chair I'm in) much sooner than him. When he sees her get out to go for a walk, he goes bonkers, nevermind if he ends up seeing her out on a leash all day!

And this is a good starting point, I hope, for the dog reactivity on walks:
In the past I have tried corrections, which were probably more nagging to him than anything else...I tried to physically lay him on his side and hold him down...which I can do but my wife could not. That did nothing.

I am now trying the technique I saw Ed do on his Dominant and Aggressive Dog DVD with saying "no" and if he doesn't respond make a correction with the prong collar and if he still doesn't listen I increase the level of correction...so far...in the past two days on the groundwork program it seems to have slightly improved. Possibly the new program and new techniques have something to do with it.


Reply from Lynn:

Marc, you need to be very careful with timing corrections for dog aggression. If the dog relates the correction to the other dog (and doesn't connect the correction to you), then you will end up making your dog even more fearful and aggressive toward other dogs.

If he is hackling, barking and lunging, you have waited too long to correct him. If you are going to correct in this situation, you need to say 'No!' and correct the minute he looks at the other dog, before he has reacted strongly. If you time the correction correctly, you should not need to give such a strong correction...

A better choice would be to work on obedience just outside his reactivity area. This is where marker training comes into play. The basic premise is that you do some fun, upbeat obedience just outside of the area where your dog reacts to other dogs. If the other dogs are behind a fence, this should make it pretty easy to pinpoint where he starts to react.

If he plays with a tug, this is another way to engage him in a positive manner just outside his reactive zone. As he becomes more comfortable, you can move closer to the other dogs. This is something that you would work on daily for awhile, to accomplish desensitizing him to other dogs.
End of Lynne's reply

Marc, please help us with a recap of what the other issues were, aside from the dog-reactivity/aggro.

Ages of dogs and how long you've had them, too, will probably help.

Also, have you received professional help?



(I hope I didn't make the confusion worse with the one thread.)

Okay. Again thank you all for helping. Your support is greatly appreciated.
My wife and I rescued a male pit bull. He is about 3 1/2 - 4 years old, we have had him for 3 years. We also rescued a female pit and she is slightly younger, 3-3 1/2, we have had her for two years. With all the conflicting info on dog training, I have read a ton and tried some techniques before, but to be candid, I never spent the time with them training or working on obed training as I should. I have always walked them and played with them, but I also spoiled them as well. 6 months ago we spent $800 on Bark Busters dog training and the guy came here twice and gave us some pointers and some techniques. One of them was when they were not listening he advised up to toss a "bean bag" filled w/ chain at their paws. Not hitting the paws but as a way to correct from a distance. This scared the heck out of both of them. The male went and hid in the corner shaking and it surprised the "trainer". I stopped using that method when I saw that reaction. I have always made them sit before feeding and they cooperate w/ that. The female has always been skiddish. If I raise my voice in the house, even if I'm happy about something, she gets scared. The male has always whined a bit when he didn't get his way. For example in the car, he tries continuously to get in the front seat, because he always wants to be right next to me and when I don't let him in the front he would whine the entire ride! When I first got him he played fine w/ my friends pits. He had two, a male and female and they seemed to play fine. I guess it was a bit nieve of me to just let them play but nothing bad ever happened. Then at one point he started to act aggressive when we saw another dog on the walk. Yet, when we brought the female in, he was fine w/ her.?? I hope I'm not being too complicated or dragging this on, I just want to try to paint the picture as complete as possible so you may be able to guide me to the proper solution. They have both been quiet for the past hour, not a peep. He didn't eat today, he did yesterday but today when I put the food in he was too busy whining. She eats no problem and always has, she if def food driven. He is not. He loves sticks (I have plenty in the back yard as I own a tree removal company and they love the wood, chips and sticks) he also loves tennis balls but with one chomp, they have to be thrown out. He loves playing tug and I have trained him to release on my command and he does. I just thought I shouldn't do that w/ him anymore due to his somewhat aggressive behavior. The reason why we started this is because I have always been searching for the proper methods and especially the proper methods actually laid out in a plan of action like Ed has done. Plus, we want to have kids in the future and do not want any issues. Thank you all!!!!!

Hi Marc, I tried groundwork after 2 of my dogs had a fight. I read the e-book and watched the DVD. There was a lot of whining and stress when I tried 24/7 and ignoring. After about a week of whining, barking and stress I eased up on them, tethering one of the dogs to me and rotating them every 30 mins. They got the idea and in a couple of days were waiting their turn calmly in the crates. We do not have anywhere to put the crates so that we could ignore the barking and rotating was the only thing that worked. The neighbors remarked on how much quieter my dogs are. This goes against every post and advise on this forum but we had no other choice, it was a nightmare and was affecting our health and driving the neighbors nuts.

The groundwork vs. crate training: during CT the dog is introduced very gradually to the crate with a lot of positive reinforcement, in and out, no forcing the dog. During the GW the dog is forced into a crate and is left there and ignored no matter what. It does not seem to make sense to do GW with a dog that hasn't been crate trained first. Could anybody clarify this point, please?

 Quote: marc mathews

With all the conflicting info on dog training, 6 months ago we spent $800 on Bark Busters dog training and the guy came here twice and gave us some pointers and some techniques. One of them was when they were not listening he advised up to toss a "bean bag" filled w/ chain at their paws. Not hitting the paws but as a way to correct from a distance. This scared the heck out of both of them. The male went and hid in the corner shaking and it surprised the "trainer". I stopped using that method when I saw that reaction.

To borrow a line from Jenni Williams, 'Oh, Mylanta!'
Marc, I'm glad that you saw what a dumb idea that was. Sorry about the $800.

Really, you have got to start marker training with them. They both sound like nice dogs, and it doesn't sound like you have any huge problems with them.

Personally, I would not be crating 24/7 for either one, since you are not having any real problems in the house. What you might start doing is alternating them out of the crates. One tethered to you while the other one is in the crate. If your male is going to go nuts if the female is out of her crate, put his crate in the bedroom. Leave the female's crate in the living area (or wherever).

I am going to provide some links to getting started with marker training in a few minutes.

Also, re the tug, if you are able to ask him to release the tug, and he does so willingly, there is no reason not to use the tug to play with. Just remember that it's your tug, not his, and put it up after you are done playing.

OK, I'll be back in a few minutes w/ some links...

PS re posting etiquette, it really helps if you divide up a large post into paragraphs. Some folks will not take the time to read a huge blog of text...

Marc, I sent you a pm (private message-click on flashing flag at the top of your screen) with marker training links...

Lynne, I cannot thank you enough for all your help and info today. You are right they are great dogs and I only want whats best for them. I apologize for my posting etiquette, I will be more on top of that. Thank you for the links, I'm printing the ebook now. I think I can see light at the end of the tunnel!!! I will order a tug today and will def use it, he will love it. Any suggestions on which one to purchase? And thank God for not having to keep up w/ the 24/7 crating!