Originally posted by Kristen Cabe:
Unfortunately, Michael, it does not work out that way with everyone. I tried everything that Ed suggested regarding dog-to-dog aggression, and my dog only got worse. 1)I cannot physically give a hard enough correction, even with the prong, to get her to stop her behavior once she focuses on another dog and 2)She perceived the pain as coming from the other dog, and so only became worse.

I'm now working with a trainer with advanced obedience with her, specifically focusing on heel at this point - which ideally will be the position she will go to when we encounter another dog while out. It sounds like you may be dealing with fear aggression. It *Does* help to NOT let your dog get to the point of focusing on another dog which is what it sounds like the trainer is doing for you.

The correction needs to be for breaking a command (e.g., the heeling) and NOT for the reaction to the other dog. If you break eye contact immediately you break that focus on the other dog.

I have a fear aggressive dog aggressive male and the technique of giving him obedience command to heel and look at me when we see another dog has worked wonders.

I got a long way and spent a lot of time with desensitization and motivational obedience after making it worse with poorly timed prong corrections, but ultimately had to physically correct for breaking a command and enforce the fact that even if he is scared, I am in charge.

Tim, in every other instance, I can give an appropriate correction, but when it comes to another dog, there's no amount of correcting that will make her turn and listen to me. Even the volley method you mentioned. She's a pit bull/chow mix, which makes her have a very high pain tolerance when she is aroused. She knows the 'leave it' command, but will obey it with everything except other dogs. I realize I have a long way to go with her, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes 1)Because of her breed and that she's so good with people, but if they see her acting like an idiot towards other animals they assume she's mean and vicious and 2)Because I want to be able to take her hiking and backpacking and camping with us, and not have to worry about her attacking someone else's dog, even if they are the ones at fault for having their dog off leash.

Nancy, I'm with you 100%; I think it's fear-based. I do not think she's actually wanting to rip into the other dogs; I think she's just got the mentality that "If I show them who's boss first, then they won't mess with me," and I think it all boils down to me (stupidly) taking her to the dog park when she was younger. I firmly believe that the dog park is where she learned this behavior. Now she's had months to fine-tune it and I haven't been able to stop it myself, so I've had to consult the help of a trainer/behavioralist who is experienced in dealing with aggressive dogs and has a very good track record with turning them around. I didn't really want to spend $1000 to fix the problem, but at this point I felt I had no other options.

Luckily, he's knowledgeable about prong and e-collar training, as well as clicker and positive reinforcement training. He is able to incorporate all of the methods instead of just saying there's only one way to fix this.

I just hope it isn't too late.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Kristen Cabe:


Luckily, he's knowledgeable about prong and e-collar training, as well as clicker and positive reinforcement training. He is able to incorporate all of the methods instead of just saying there's only one way to fix this.

I just hope it isn't too late.

That is, too me, a good sign.

Toby took the hit as puppy by a mean intact male Golden (yes they CAN be mean) which left him in fear and I made it worse with badly timed prong corrections.

I then worked Toby with someone who as only about clickers and food and it DID take us a long way (improve things) but only to within about 3 or 4 feet of another dog without losing it.

A member of LE showed me how to close the final gap using heeling and obedience with corrections.

Now if a dog runs into Toby's face I am NOT going to expect miracles. If there is a dog fight due to an offlead dog, I will mix it up with him. This is a dog I can walk through the woods offlead and call him in if we see another dog--

He is not (and never will be) a dog I would take to PetSmart where the Flexi-lead-idiots holler "Oh don't worry, he's freindly" as their chichuaua goes flying into my dogs face for kisses.

Kristen,You mentioned that your pup is a Bull/Chow mix.That is an intense cross.If your pup makes her mind up..to attack or interact..It is not out of fear.Unless while in the park..she felt threatened as a pup...and as she has matured she just won't let the memory of that fear get her.There is not one quick fix for all breeds.Your pup will probably respond better to conditioned response not pressure.Once she is in her high prey drive..one immediate discipline will not work.When you got her..was she exposed to any other dogs at your home in order to bond?If the true problem is dog interaction.That is what your trainer should focus on.Not just the healing etc.Ask the trainer to stand stay a dog that won't move in a large area. Go at heal with your pup towards that dog..and as soon as you feel that she is at more attention to that dog than you..make a turn and go the opposite direction..and praise. Then do it again and again.One foot at a time..or inch.When she can get a foot within the dog and you know she has your attention..Then give her a down..with much praise..and repeat again.The important thing is the dog at that is at the other end standing calmly..no tail up.

It is NO WONDER this is happening. This isnt a "stable dog with stable temperament".. Genetically flawed breeding.

My opinion again.

 Quote:

Unless while in the park..she felt threatened as a pup...and as she has matured she just won't let the memory of that fear get her

Candace, there were two specific dog park instances that I can think of that makes me think she may be acting on the defensive, just prematurely. One instance occurred at the dog park when she was a little more than a year old. This one lady had her own pack of dogs there, a mother German Shepherd and her four mixed-breed puppies that were about the same age as Gypsy. The mother GSD would not allow any other dog to interact with her puppies, and would chase them away, hackles raised and teeth bared. The puppies were also very rude. They would go up to another dog and pester it by barking in its face and biting at its legs and tail until it finally had had enough and retaliated. Then they would all gang up on it and end up pinning it to the ground in submission. The stupid owner was oblivious, and she even said one time that "They never act like this at home!" I tried to stay away from her, and keep Gypsy away from her dogs. I would even chase her dogs away if they tried to approach Gypsy. But one time, she had gone to the water tub for a dip and was returning back to me, and the biggest 'puppy' jumped on her in play from behind. The others of course ran over to join in, and before I could get to them, she had run them all off using her display of dominance and lots of nasty growling. She snapped at them, but never made contact. They never did try to go near her again.

Then, another time, there was this mixed dog there that for some reason or another, Gypsy just didn't like. Apparently, he didn't get the picture, and kept trying to play with her regardless of the fact that the ignored him, so she hackled, growled, and lunged at him and he went away.

After that second time, I no longer took her to the dog park because the people there had no idea about pack behavior and play in dogs, they didn't clean up after their dogs, and they didn't pay attention to their dogs.


When I got her, I had no other dogs. The only dogs she ever had any exposure to were the strays that occasionally would roam through the yard. We had an invisible fence. She got along well with all of them, and I thought that by taking her to the dog park that I was helping to socialize her, but I have since learned better. I take her over to my aunt's house every once in a while and she plays with their dog, a min pin/jrt mix. They are the best of friends, and she knows where we're going as soon as we turn onto her road. She begins whining and wagging her tail, and jumping from one side of the back seat to the other. As soon as I pull into the driveway and let her out, she goes straight to the gate to be let into the back yard. She never hackles at him.

When I got my foster dog in August, I thought maybe that would help her to be better with new dogs because it would give me and her more chances to reinforce her position. He was already a submissive dog, so I knew they would be fine, and they were. At the initial meeting, she did hackle at him, but it was only for a couple of seconds and then they began playing immediately. They still get along just fine.


Tomorrow, if it isn't raining, the trainer is going to bring his dog again (he brought her the first time he came to my house to see how Gypsy reacted to another dog) and do exactly what you suggested. He's going to have her in a sit/stay in heel position three houses down, and Gypsy and I are going to then go outside as usual like we're going to do a training session. She knows what the clicker means, so to start out, as soon as she sees his dog, I'll click and treat. Every time she looks at the other dog, before she reacts in any way, she'll get a click and treat. If all goes well, then I'll heel her towards him and turn around the moment she reacts to his dog.

 Quote:

If the true problem is dog interaction.That is what your trainer should focus on. Not just the healing etc

She had to learn how to heel first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That is why we were working on it. She didn't know the heel command.

You said that you are going to click/treat every time she looks at the other dog and doesn't react. In theory, that sounds good. But you are reinforcing for looking at the other dog. If it were me, I'd click/treat for looking at ME in the presence of the other dog. In hopes that eventually when she gets near another dog, she'd look at me.

However, I'd use an e-collar for this. I've been the clicker way with an aggressive dog. I got more done in 5 minutes with an e-collar than in 5 years with the clicker. JMO

IF you are going to attempt using positive reinforcement for this issue, don't use the clicker. It is difficult enough to be aware of your dog's actions and reactions. . .and other dogs, without having to worry about adding a step into the mix.

What I do is straight food from the hand to reward attention to me. I continue to feed as the dog continues to pay attention to you and not the other dog. I feed as I lead the dog away out of sight of the other animal. You need to have another dog owner help you with this training. You start at long distances and gradually move closer to the other dog team as you work on a good reward schedule with treats from your hand.


I have a very dog aggressive female and I've found that this was the only way I was able to begin working through the problem. At the same time I use an e-collar to correct the wrong behavior while I reward the right behavior. Works VERY well.

Using chewy food like strips of beef jerky works well because the dog needs to keep his attention on it and chew it out of your hand as you walk away.


You reward for attention to you only. I'd try this method for a few weeks before just jumping right into the collar. At best it will save you the money of the collar, and worst case scenario you have taught the dog at least what attention is. . .even if you can't keep it in the face of a dog distraction. That will help with the work using the e-collar.

I've used the clicker very successfully for this. First I practiced obedience and attention without the presence of other dogs to establish the "game" with my dog. Once she was into the game, I started playing it in the presence of other dogs, only at great distances, like VC mentioned. For mine, just seeing another dog as a teeny dot on the horizon was, at one time, enough to elicit an aggressive response. So that's where I started, just walking around in front of my house and around the corner and back. As soon as another dog appeared on the horizon, I'd issue commands and C/T to mark her correct responses. One of the things I worked hard on was teaching her that the correct response to hearing her name was to give me eye contact. We practiced heeling, sitting, etc. Over time we've been able to decrease the distance at which she can still give me attention and obey commands in the presence of other dogs.
As for the food, I don't use things she has to chew. I use tiny pieces that she can basically inhale effortlessly, so that I can present them rapid fire if needed. The squeeze tubes are another good one if you can manage leash, clicker, and squeeze tube, AND pay attention to your dog as well as the location of the other dog (which I can, so it works pretty well for me). The squeeze tubes can be purchased at any camping supply store and filled with canned dog food, goat cheese, liver paste, or anything soft. Using this would be similar to VC's suggestion of using chewy treats, I think, in that you can sustain the dog's attention on the squeeze tube for a longer period than individual treats.

If you have a hard time managing a clicker, I have found a type of clicker that makes it much easier. It has a button that you can press rapidly because it's easy to find by feel, rather than the box style where you have to have it in the exact position in order to be able to use it, which can result in a lot of fumbling around. I think it's called the "I-Click".

You can just bypass the clicker like VC mentioned, and that's fine. It works. I've just used it with my dog because she REALLY likes it, so she has really positive feelings going on when we're playing the clicker game. If you want to use one, be sure that you're marking looking AWAY from the other dog, following obedience commands, etc. If you click when your dog looks at the other dog, then you're reinforcing paying attention to the other dog. Your dog will not "get" that you're clicking because they're not acting aggressively. Plus, your dog could be making hard eye contact, or closing its mouth (a direct precursor to aggressing) when you click, so that in effect, you're reinforcing aggressive behaviors. That's the opposite of what you want. You want the dog to take its eyes away from the other dog and look at YOU.

Whether you move on to correcting the dog for not obeying commands in the presence of other dogs, I think, is up to you. If you do, I would highly recommend that you first establish a very strong foundation with the positive motivation/reinforcement method, to be sure that when you do add in corrections, you're not setting your dog up for failure. Of course, you'd also go back to square one on the distance when you do this too. This is JMO. I haven't started adding in the corrections with my dog because I don't think she's ready.

I-click?

I-clicked..... and my hearing came back.. Hallelujah.