Quote: jamie craig

 Quote: lynne peck

Betty - sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I was at dog class.

I have been a little gunshy to respond the way I really would normally to some of the threads for fear of recriminations.

You are right, tho. I think if the thread is read correctly, this is a pre-vet program which is in my experience nothing classes, that give you nothing to fall back on if you don't make it into vet school. Also, almost all instructors in vet school are vets who are well respected and have chosen to go into

This man is a vet, many of our professors are, this one is not practicing anymore (he was "old" when my father had him....he must be at least 85 now....seriously, he's ancient). He's a "horse guy" more than dogs but all of the dog related classes are taught by him (luckily there aren't many if this is the info he's giving out)

The program is the pre-vet track of the animal science degree. I'm animal science WITHOUT the pre-vet part which means I'm getting a biology degree with the ability to inseminate cows, collect stallions, handle various farm animals, and castrate most farm animals. This class is a 3 credit elective for me though it's recommended for all on the pre-vet track who want to go into small animal veterinary practice.

At our school our animal science program is pretty much a bio program except with more animal specific examples (our nutrition is animal nutrition, we have the option of animal genetics rather than human, etc).

Jamie - wouldn't that blow some alrms right off the bat? He's 85 and used to treating dogs with chewing tobacco.

 Quote: jamie craig

This man is a vet, many of our professors are, this one is not practicing anymore (he was "old" when my father had him....he must be at least 85 now....seriously, he's ancient)

I'm familiar with your school's Animal Science Program and I do not believe the professor of whom you speak has a DVM.

Perhaps you are missing some tongue in cheek humor when this professor tells his stories? He can be quite funny and has a certain amount of disdain for Western medicine. I just felt your post was way off base from the Professor I am familiar with and wanted to set the record straight.

Lynne, you are right most or half the time vet make sense but some times, mine are down right dumb. Like in one of my post cut down activity of dog!!! I must be the only person in the world with house dogs that get over excercise.

Geez...sounds like a tough class to sit through. Thankfully I'm done with college but I took many horse management classes and had some similiar experiences. I had issues when I used to work as a tech for a small animal vet....she was very old school and knew nothing about nutrition. Her cure all was to prescribe science diet to everyone and then couldn't figure it out when nothing got better. Eventually I got tired of holding my tongue and that's when I took the kennel manager job for a Golden Retriever show dog breeder. My current vet is very good and familiar with working line dogs so I'm happy with him for now.

Jamie, go to vet school. You are smart enough, have a hand with animals and a natural gift. It's a long track and you might feel ancient when you are done BUT-
It is the best job in the world IMO. You make some mistakes, but overall you get to help people 18 hrs a day. The rush you feel when you avert death is something that nothing else in life can match.
You are going to be working for years, you might as well be the boss.

 Quote: lynne peck

 Quote: betty landercasp

Lynne, did you think the bulk of the students were anything like that when we went to CSU?
I was in awe of many of my classmates. I felt it was an honor to attend.
It was an ag+equine based program, though.

Betty - sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I was at dog class.

I have been a little gunshy to respond the way I really would normally to some of the threads for fear of recriminations.

You are right, tho. I think if the thread is read correctly, this is a pre-vet program which is in my experience these are very basic classes, that give you nothing to fall back on if you don't make it into vet school or are intended for other studies. Also, almost all instructors in vet school are vets who are well respected and have chosen to go into education after practicing for many years and are highly respected in the fields. Most college students entering vet school usually have gained a bachelor's degree in some other field, just in case they don't get accepted. At CSU, just being in the pre-vet program first doesn't guarantee a placing as it doesn't all revolve around schooling, but pre=vet also doesn't gain a degree. So if you don't make it, you have nothing to fall back on - is that how you remember it, Betty?

I am a little upset with the way people are always cutting down vets and telling all their little stories about how they did something completely against normal recommendations and then hold it up and say "See, the stupid vets don't know what they're talking about". Bet you don't say that when you find out you have cancer and your doctor says here's the recommended medications and therapy and you say "nope, I think your advice is dumb and I can handle it myself". What happens the next time your pet has an inguinal hernia and you say oh, I know it will close up by itself, the other ones did. Then a loop of intestine falls through the hole and is strangulated, the intestine ruptures, your pet gets peritonitis, but hey, you saved a few bucks waiting!

I know you all are going to slam me and that's ok - but alot of the statements on here are so "stupid client" - didn't look at it that way did you?

I'm with you 100%, Lynne. Had I chosen to ignore my vet's recommendations when Callie developed Panceatitis, she would have ended up spend days at the least in intensive care instead of at home with me. Same with her seizures. We waited and watched until they started occuring almost daily and then went to phenobarb and she hasn't had a seizure since - all of this under the recommendation of my absolutely wonderful vet. AND with all of this she took time to concern herself with my well-being, too.

And please, don't get me started on the hernia....#1 - do you have any idea what intense pain this is for an animal??? Take a piece of your intestine and wrap it tightly in a rubber band and see how it feels.

If you don't agree with what your vet tells you at least research what the options are or get a second opinion. If you don't trust your vet or think they are stupid then don't continue to go to them - Find a new one.

I'm certain I'll get a number of responses that will again label me as "over-reacting". But if my "over-reacting" keeps my pets from any pain and suffering then I'm glad I did.

The problem is, that for every animal a vet saves from suffering, there is probably another than we can definitively link responsibility for suffering, to a vet.

I am not anti-vet. I think that all pet owners should seek out vets with whom they can collaborate to ensure the health of their animals. I have exactly the same approach to human medicine. If you are not an equal partner in the process, there is something very wrong.

I am neither a blanket condemner of professionals, nor a blind sycophantic worshiper of a graduate degree.

There are many practices common in the Veterinary profession which are directly and measurably harmful to our pets, which are widely preached as medically sound. Spay and neuter, being one, and poor nutritional advice, another.

A Veterinarian who will administer harmful and only partially effective medications to treat an undiagnosed allergy or food intolerance, is hardly someone who is alleviating the suffering of an animal. He is harming that animal, not through malice, but through a failure to approach his patient as a total system, and a willingness to treat symptoms rather than determine causes.

Do all vets do this? No.
Do the majority of vets do this? I have no idea. My animals spend such little time in a vets office, and when they do, they are veterinarians who have literally been interviewed by phone or by email, and systematically chosen by virtue of their sound veterinary practices.

The unfortunate truth is, all we know about a Vet, or a MD, is that he has graduated with a Doctorate degree in his profession.

We do not know if he graduated at the top, or the bottom, of his class. We often do not know if he continues his education to remain at the cutting edge of his profession, and whether he seeks beyond the established conventional wisdom and establishes his own sources of wisdom.

20 years ago, it was conventional wisdom, and preached by most vets, that wet food was bad for cats and caused urinary crystals and other urinary problems.

Veterinarians warned their clients against feeding wet food to their cats, and cats that developed urinary problems were placed on strict dry-only diets.

Now the standard approach has done a complete 180.
But do you know? I've still found Vets that preach the old wisdom. Are they doing so maliciously? Of course not! They're just preaching what they learned when they went to vet school.

Condemning vets out of hand, and en masse, is just idiotic.
Accepting veterinarians as the end-all, be-all of pet health information is equally stupid.

Ultimately, healthcare is a commodity in this country, for animals or humans, to be consumed like any other good or service.

Caveat emptor.

Amen.

Interesting story: for a few years, I was a "standardized patient" for a medical school where a friend of mine is an instructor. I had a script to follow, and residents would come into the exam room to do a history and physical and then write up a report on my "case"---and I got to do a report on each of them and how they did.

What this experience taught me was that not all medical professionals have the same skills or intellect. In fact there are more "bad" than "good" ones. This revelation actually came as a surprise to me. Before this, I guess I assumed that all physicians were given the same training--they all know the same stuff, right? Big wrong. These were young people about to get MDs from one of the top medical schools.

Doctors are people. Just like plasterers, dog trainers, or US senators. The really good ones are pretty rare.

There are some awesome vets out there. There are lots of adequate vets out there. BUT, there are a FEW vets that are a menace to animal health. One that springs to mind, that unfortunately I can't name outright, is right here in OKC. He was working a "trial night" at the animal emergency hosp. where I worked, and the owner asked that I keep an eye and tell him what I thought. I ended up calling him at 11:00 pm and telling him to come get this f'in idiot out of here before he kills anything else! A little Pom came in, loaded with fleas, white gums, low temp, etc. CLASSIC flea anemia. I TPR'd it, and went to the back to start getting the transfusion stuff ready. THEN I overhear this idiot telling the people, "Well, he's had a stroke, and there's really nothing we can do for him. Just take him home and make him comfortable til he passes or we can put him to sleep." They left with the dog (that was only about 5 years old). I nearly bit my tongue off to keep from running after them yelling NOOOOOOO!!!! This guy is stupid! Come back!


(It was when he handed me a blocked tom cat and asked me to go get an xray of the "mass" in his abdomen, that I called the owner.)

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

The problem is, that for every animal a vet saves from suffering, there is probably another than we can definitively link responsibility for suffering, to a vet.

I am not anti-vet. I think that all pet owners should seek out vets with whom they can collaborate to ensure the health of their animals. I have exactly the same approach to human medicine. If you are not an equal partner in the process, there is something very wrong.

I am neither a blanket condemner of professionals, nor a blind sycophantic worshiper of a graduate degree.

There are many practices common in the Veterinary profession which are directly and measurably harmful to our pets, which are widely preached as medically sound. Spay and neuter, being one, and poor nutritional advice, another.

A Veterinarian who will administer harmful and only partially effective medications to treat an undiagnosed allergy or food intolerance, is hardly someone who is alleviating the suffering of an animal. He is harming that animal, not through malice, but through a failure to approach his patient as a total system, and a willingness to treat symptoms rather than determine causes.

Do all vets do this? No.
Do the majority of vets do this? I have no idea. My animals spend such little time in a vets office, and when they do, they are veterinarians who have literally been interviewed by phone or by email, and systematically chosen by virtue of their sound veterinary practices.

The unfortunate truth is, all we know about a Vet, or a MD, is that he has graduated with a Doctorate degree in his profession.

We do not know if he graduated at the top, or the bottom, of his class. We often do not know if he continues his education to remain at the cutting edge of his profession, and whether he seeks beyond the established conventional wisdom and establishes his own sources of wisdom.

20 years ago, it was conventional wisdom, and preached by most vets, that wet food was bad for cats and caused urinary crystals and other urinary problems.

Veterinarians warned their clients against feeding wet food to their cats, and cats that developed urinary problems were placed on strict dry-only diets.

Now the standard approach has done a complete 180.
But do you know? I've still found Vets that preach the old wisdom. Are they doing so maliciously? Of course not! They're just preaching what they learned when they went to vet school.

Condemning vets out of hand, and en masse, is just idiotic.
Accepting veterinarians as the end-all, be-all of pet health information is equally stupid.

Ultimately, healthcare is a commodity in this country, for animals or humans, to be consumed like any other good or service.

Caveat emptor.

So well said Aaron, I could not have said it any better!